Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

[Richard G.]

I though I would share my buddies motor experience.
He purchased a Project with a rebuilt 350 motor.
The guy had receipts for all the work and it was expensive.
Motor was assembled by the re-builder but somewhere along the way, we believe, the camshaft was changed out by the prior owner.
We can't prove but it doesn't really matter I'm just throwing in this piece of information because it illustrates the difficulty of getting the whole motor history.

The Project came with a video of the motor running on the stand before the motor installation.
It basically illustrated the guy blipping the throttle on the motor. Their was no indications where this was in the motor start up history.

A few months later the project goes well and is looking good. It was purchased painted so we thought the big headache was in the past.
We finally get the motor in and running and even down the road a short way and then the oil change....
Fine metal particles in the oil! Darn! We traced down to a flat cam. Motor was tore down for a cam change and here is a picture of what we found;



One lifter is still in the block. Seven of the sixteen were shot. It is unclear if the motor was idled on start up or the lack of a zinc additive was the issue. Block is still in the car and one lifter isn't coming out of the block. I should have taken another picture but I will describe the issue we have with the one remaining lifter. We used vise grips to pull the stubborn lifters out of the bores and the last one was being stubborn.
With a hurricane effort on the vise grips he managed to break the top of the lifter. I have never seen this before and the top part is thinner than I would have anticipated. Broke out about half the diameter. Of course the retainer and spring were recovered. The cows were already out but we borrowed a lifer puller and found out it wasn't going to work with half the top of the lifter gone.
Not enough meat left for the collet to grab the grove in the lifter.

Unsure where to go from here. I have driven lifters out from the bottom but that was on a used engine tear-down and would like to avoid it if possible. Any ideas where to go from here? Difficult to dig out of the hole we just dug for our self!
Rick

[Joe L.]

Re: Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

I though I would share my buddies motor experience.
He purchased a Project with a rebuilt 350 motor.
The guy had receipts for all the work and it was expensive.
Motor was assembled by the re-builder but somewhere along the way, we believe, the camshaft was changed out by the prior owner.
We can't prove but it doesn't really matter I'm just throwing in this piece of information because it illustrates the difficulty of getting the whole motor history.

The Project came with a video of the motor running on the stand before the motor installation.
It basically illustrated the guy blipping the throttle on the motor. Their was no indications where this was in the motor start up history.

A few months later the project goes well and is looking good. It was purchased painted so we thought the big headache was in the past.
We finally get the motor in and running and even down the road a short way and then the oil change....
Fine metal particles in the oil! Darn! We traced down to a flat cam. Motor was tore down for a cam change and here is a picture of what we found;



One lifter is still in the block. Seven of the sixteen were shot. It is unclear if the motor was idled on start up or the lack of a zinc additive was the issue. Block is still in the car and one lifter isn't coming out of the block. I should have taken another picture but I will describe the issue we have with the one remaining lifter. We used vise grips to pull the stubborn lifters out of the bores and the last one was being stubborn.
With a hurricane effort on the vise grips he managed to break the top of the lifter. I have never seen this before and the top part is thinner than I would have anticipated. Broke out about half the diameter. Of course the retainer and spring were recovered. The cows were already out but we borrowed a lifer puller and found out it wasn't going to work with half the top of the lifter gone.
Not enough meat left for the collet to grab the grove in the lifter.

Unsure where to go from here. I have driven lifters out from the bottom but that was on a used engine tear-down and would like to avoid it if possible. Any ideas where to go from here? Difficult to dig out of the hole we just dug for our self!
Rick

Rick------


The stubborn lifter is probably "mushroomed" so badly that it won't come out of the bore.

The lifters look like Sealed Power (Federal-Mogul) lifters. The root of the problem may have been the cam, itself, rather than a problem caused by lack of zinc in the oil.

What has been experienced here is AMONG the reasons that I would only use an hydraulic roller cam when building any engine. I've got lots of GM NOS flat tappet cams and GM NOS lifters, both mechanical and hydraulic, [none for sale] but I'd never even use any of them in an engine I built today. They're "historical relics". In my opinion, totally obsolete.

[Mark E.]

Re: Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

This hobby can be frustrating. The journals and bearings may be shot as well from oil contamination.

Depending on your patience and budget, you may consider getting another assembled short block. Jegs or Summit can supply one for $1,500. Otherwise it's teardown, inspection, reassembly time.

[Jack H.]

Re: Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

OEM style heads with OEM stiffness valve springs?

[James G.]

Re: Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

UGH!
IMHO The lifter really has to go out the bottom or you are likely to score the lifter bore, then you care going to need to hone it - as you know it will go out the bottom - mushroom lifters are used in some types of flat tappet limited racing classes.

I would bet that either proper break in procedures were not followed OR the proper break-in oil (AMSOIL FLAT TAPPET BREAK-IN or like) was not used. The number of lifter failures leads me to believe it was procedure not oil unless NO ASSEMBLY LUBE were EVER APPPLIED TO THE CAM.

[Richard G.]

Re: Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

Heads are aftermarket aluminum with what appears to be springs that are stiffer than the stock ones.
I have heard of people only using stock springs, for start up, and after breaking the motor in switching them out.
I do have a spring tester. Should pull one and inspect it.

You can get them out the bottom? I wasn't sure about that.
Rick

[Domenic T.]

Re: Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

Rick,
Slide a tube where the cam was and push the lifter down and in the tube. Then pull the tube out and throw away the lifter. You have to cut the tube so the lifter can fit in the opening of the trench you cut in the tube.

Dom

[Joe L.]

Re: Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

Heads are aftermarket aluminum with what appears to be springs that are stiffer than the stock ones.
I have heard of people only using stock springs, for start up, and after breaking the motor in switching them out.
I do have a spring tester. Should pull one and inspect it.

You can get them out the bottom? I wasn't sure about that.
Rick

Rick------


For a street engine I highly recommend using nothing other than stock valve springs.

[Michael H.]

Re: Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

I would for sure pull the motor and check all of the internal bearings, that metal had to go some where. The old saying is pay me now or pay me later......

Mike

[Richard G.]

Re: Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

Michael;
I agree, pull the motor and check, however it's not my choice. I am passing on your advice. We had considered pushing the lifter down. Wasn't sure the lifter would clear all the cam bearings. I'm assuming Dom has had to use this method before and it worked for him. Well next time, as the owner got the last lifter out, through the top.
Removed the fuel pump and pulled the cam. More happy horse stuff as the harmonic balancer pulled off by hand. They had some black silicon in the bore. i am assuming they knew the balancer was loose because of the sealant. Again, I don't believer it was the builder doing this. There was .012 of taper in the bore of the balancer. I checked an old one I had lying around and found it had no taper and was bored between .003 and .004 undersized (tight). This balancer was a high budget after market with no history. Going back to the stock one that came with the project.
Good news; is it came with a rebuilt 4L60 that is working flawlessly.
I sure am appreciative everyone's input on this cluster.
Rick

[Domenic T.]

Re: Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

Richard,
Looking at those lifters tells me that there was more than 1 making noise. To wear that bad also would take a long time.
When I was a mechanic at the dealership I saw failures like that on a regular basis, whether in my stall or another mechanics stall.
The tube trick worked great. Back then plastic pipe was not borne, so we went to the exhaust rack and used metal pipe. We cut a ditch for the lifters to drop into and when they did they went down then fell on their side.
Snap on sold a tool to remove lifters, but the mushroomed ones took hours till we made the tube. Working flat rate rarely paid for mushroomed lifter removal.
About 15 years ago I sent a 350 block out for a .030 bore. They cleaned the block with what seemed to have shot peen involved. They were the top knotch place to send work here in Palm springs. They said the block was pressure tested also. I unwrapped it and assembled the crank and pistons, then turned it over and installed the cam and heads. I filled the lifters with oil thru the side hole till it came out the top where the pushrod seated. When I went to put the lifters in they would not fit. I tried other lifters just to make sure the new ones were not made oversize for what ever reason.
They would not fit either. I then took a small brake cylinder hone and made a pass in a lifter bore and the lifter went in, but did not spin. I honed another pass and it was OK. Had I forced the lifters in the results of them not rotating would have ended up with a failure. Then I just stood there wondering if the peen narrowed the lifter bore, and saw a crack about 8" long in the block about 2" above the lifters. The crack was in the water jacket and had nothing to do with the lifters not rotating.
The best shop in town? How did the block pressure test with the crack? How did they get the shot peen out? I stopped using that shop and had a good .030 350 block on the shelf and moved on.
Now I especially make sure all lifters rotate, and remember the ones that had a wear pattern straight across the bottom that I removed in earlier years when I worked at the dealership.

Dom

[James G.]

Re: Less than one hour on motor (lifter failure)

all this being said regarding flat tappets... PERSONALLY If I am putting a cam into an engine, I call Dave Crower and have him custom design a solid roller for the engines using the head flow numbers and car weight/gear ratios