Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

[Edward M.]

I recently acquired a 1964 Rochester Fuel Injection system. The unit is number #1250, a 7017380 unit.

The base adapter (manifold) is dated 10 - 1 - 63, and the distributor (1111063) is dated 3 L 12 (Nov 12, 1963).

The unit appears to be complete and unmolested.

The unit also apparently has a 1963 air meter.

I am trying to determine if it could have possibly come with a 1963 air meter originally.

And for that matter, what is the difference between a 1963 and a 1964 air meter?

[Joe R.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

Ed,

Think John DeGregory has your answer. You want his number?


JR

[Edward M.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

I got his number JR, thanks.

Ed

[Edward M.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

I am looking for information on Rochester FI units #7017380 with serial numbers close to #1250.

I have #1250.

I am trying to figure out what the actual configuration of units in this serial number range are.

If you have a 7380 unit, please fill out the following:

Unit Number: 7017380
Serial Number: 1250
Base Adapter (manifold) casting number: 3826810
Base Adapter (manifold) casting date: 10.1.63
Distributor number: 1111063
Distributor Date: 3 L 12 (November 12, 1963)

I have not found any more numbers or date codes on any of the parts on this unit.

According to the 63-64 judging manual, a 1111063 distributor is supposed to go with a 7017375R, so I am a bit puzzled.

What I have may be a mix of parts; I am trying to determine for sure what should and what should not be with this unit.

Also, is there anyway to estimate the date that #1250 would have been produced. I seem to recall that the serial numbers started with #1001, so #1250 would be the 250th 7017380 unit built, is that correct?

In 1964, there were 1,325 FI engines produced, with 7017375 units used early, 7017375R units used after that (limited use), and then 7017380 units.

So, without any reference to go on, let me take a stab at the division of units as follows:

1964 7017375 units = 20% of total = 1325 x 0.20 = 265 units
1964 7017375R units = 10% of total = 1325 x 0.10 = 132.5 ~ 133 units
1964 7017380 units = 75% of total = 1325 - 265 - 133 = 927 units

Any thoughts on these estimates.

Any and all help gratefully appreciated.

[Edward M.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

OK, in digging back through some old threads related to this topic is have determined that an early 1707380 unit COULD have had a 63 style air meter.

The next question is whether or not this unit could have also originally had a 1111063 distributor.

To recap, I have a 1707380 unit, serial number #1250, which has a 63 style air meter and a 1111063 distributor.

I know this combination of parts puts us in a narrow production window of sometime around late Nov - Dec of 1963.

The intake is dated 10.1.63. The distributor is dated 3 L 12 (Nov 12, 1963).

So, how likely / possible is it that this combination of parts is original to each other and a specific car?

[John D.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

Hi Ed, Some of the early '64 7017380 units had left over air meter bodies used. The 1/8" pipe plug hole on the '63's had a 90 degree fitting. On the E 7380 a slotted pipe plug was used in this hole.
Getting technical now. On the real deal early'64 air meter under the slotted plug hole there was no vacuum hole drilled for the vacuum advance. So then the slotted plug was there just to cover the hole up.
This style air meter was sorta sprinkled into production just to use castings up. RP didn't waste castings as they were given strict order by the "bean counters" to use them all up.

So if any of you own an early '7380 unit it could have two style of air meters. No hole at all where the VA fitting went on the '63 or a hole as described above.

The '063 distributor you have Ed is correct but not a very good distributor with the 30-30 cam. RP soon realized that just putting an '236-16 vacuum advance on left over '63 distributors and calling them on an '063 wasn't good enough. A mess up.
Why? The curve of the 063 distributor was way off for the 30-30 cam.
Talk to Don Baker about this. He can convert your '063 to an '070 distributor which is a match for the 30-30 cam. Then just use your original '063 tag on it.
Here area few things different between the '063 and the '070. Main shaft, Distr cam, weights and springs.
The 063 distributor started off life as an '022 for the Duntov '097 cam. Same distributor with a milder vacuum advance. Weaker spring. Engineers quickly realized they made a mistake so they quickly switched to the '070 distributor.

Recap: '63 FI's used an "022 distributor.
E'64's used an '063 distributor.
Later '64's and '65's used an '070 distributor
All this info in the 6th edition of the judging manual.
John D.

[Edward M.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

Hi JD, thanks for your input. My air meter has the hole with the slotted plug in it (see picture).

I understand that the 063 distributor is not a good choice, but it is important to keep in mind that I am installing this FI unit on a stock 1964 300 hp engine (NOT an FI engine).

I will need to tune the distributor to best match the 300 hp engine, and I have a good idea of how best to proceed.

The one area I an still not sure about is the football on the distributor main shaft. I am not sure if the football of an 063 distributor would be an "issue" when used on a 300 hp engine. The cam, advance weights, and advance springs will be changed as appropriate, but I do not want to make any "permanent" modifications to this distributor.

I have not yet compared the football between the 063 distributor and the original 1111024 distributor currently installed in the engine.

[John D.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

Sgt Ed, Call Don Baker with that question. 815-498-9522.
Personally I don't think you will have a problem. But Baker is the expert on that stuff. Not me. John

[Edward M.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

Resurrecting this thread for a question.

What is the possibility of a 63 air meter with the plug in it (like my unit has) combined with an early (#1250) 7380 plenum. Is it more or less likely that this air meter would have been combined with a 7375R plenum, as opposed to a 7380 plenum.

I guess what I am really asking is if the 7380 plenum is more or less likely to be the original plenum for this FI unit?

[John D.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

Ed, I have owned several early '7380 units with the 63 style air meter.
In fact my fuel injection poster that is of a '7380 unit is one that has the plug in the air meter.
To repeat from an older reply. Not all early '7380 units used left over '63 air meter castings. Mix and match.
RP was ordered to use up all left over castings and so they did.
I assume you called Don Baker. Your '063 distributor would work just fine on a 300 HP. Vacuum advance may be an issue. Period.
Here's recap on numbers for midyear FI distributors.
'022 = all of 1963
'063 = every 1964
'064 = TI
'070 is the rest of 1964-65.

[Duke W.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

For a 300 HP camshaft engine, regardless of induction system, the best starting point spark advance map is a slightly modified version of the '66-'67 300 HP distributor. Total centrifugal is 30 at 5000, but this should be brought in lower - say 3000 to 3500 and set initial at high in the 6-10 range as the engine will tolerate without detonation, which yields 36-40 total WOT advance.

Those OE distributors had a 12" VAC to accommodate an auto trans idling in Drive, but for a manual trans I recommend a 15" B22, and, of course, the VAC should be connected to full time manifold vacuum source.

The above will yield total idle advance of 22-26, which is in the ballpark for a low overlap cam. The OE 30-30 cam needs more total idle advance due to the much higher exhaust gas dilution. That's why the distributor has only 24 centrifugal with a 8" VAC to pass the Two-Inch Rule at typical 900@ 10" idle behavior) and 12-16 initial. That yields 28-32 total idle advance, and greater advance at typical cruise conditions. For either cam 36-40 total WOT advance is the correct range for peak power, but you usually can't bring it all in as soon on a 300 HP cam versus a SHP cam because the former has a higher DCR even though the SCR was lower.

To achieve 30 centrifugal you'll likely have to grind the slot in the cam assembly to allow more advance. The currently installed cam assy. is likely a "524 CCW" If you don't want to modify it replace it with a 530 CCW, which should yield 30 centrifugal. Don't worry about the football. It affects the rate of advance, but is a secondary issue, and swapping out footballs/mainshafts will only affect the margin. Find a spring set that yields the most aggressive detonation-free centrifugal advance with a 15" VAC and you will be pretty close to optimum.

Duke

[Edward M.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

For a 300 HP camshaft engine, regardless of induction system, the best starting point spark advance map is a slightly modified version of the '66-'67 300 HP distributor. Total centrifugal is 30 at 5000, but this should be brought in lower - say 3000 to 3500 and set initial at high in the 6-10 range as the engine will tolerate without detonation, which yields 36-40 total WOT advance.

Those OE distributors had a 12" VAC to accommodate an auto trans idling in Drive, but for a manual trans I recommend a 15" B22, and, of course, the VAC should be connected to full time manifold vacuum source.

The above will yield total idle advance of 22-26, which is in the ballpark for a low overlap cam. The OE 30-30 cam needs more total idle advance due to the much higher exhaust gas dilution. That's why the distributor has only 24 centrifugal with a 8" VAC to pass the Two-Inch Rule at typical 900@ 10" idle behavior) and 12-16 initial. That yields 28-32 total idle advance, and greater advance at typical cruise conditions. For either cam 36-40 total WOT advance is the correct range for peak power, but you usually can't bring it all in as soon on a 300 HP cam versus a SHP cam because the former has a higher DCR even though the SCR was lower.

To achieve 30 centrifugal you'll likely have to grind the slot in the cam assembly to allow more advance. The currently installed cam assy. is likely a "524 CCW" If you don't want to modify it replace it with a 530 CCW, which should yield 30 centrifugal. Don't worry about the football. It affects the rate of advance, but is a secondary issue, and swapping out footballs/mainshafts will only affect the margin. Find a spring set that yields the most aggressive detonation-free centrifugal advance with a 15" VAC and you will be pretty close to optimum.

Duke

Duke;

Base in part on some previous suggestions, and other posts you have made, I am planning on putting the following parts into the 063 FI distributor

1. A 730 distributor cam
2. A B22 vacuum advance canister
3. The gold set of springs from a Mr. Gasket 928G kit

I will install this distributor in my 300 hp engine with the oil lines hooked up and sett how it performs. Assuming decent performance, I will be using it like this.

[Duke W.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

The gold spring in the Mr. Gasket 928G kit should yield the slowest rate of advance, silver next, and black is the most aggressive. The optimum centrifugal is the most aggressive spring set that doesn't detonate. I recommend you start with the most aggressive set, which his black/black. If it doesn't detonate you're done. If it does detonate progressively install springs in the following order until to find the set that doesn't detonate.

black-silver
silver-silver
silver-gold
gold-gold

Do the test in warm weather as the higher the underhood temperature, which is inlet air temperature the more propensity to detonate.

The detonation test should be done by loading up the engine from off-idle to about 3000-3500. This can be done in top gear on a level road or a lower gear on a hill.

Duke

[Edward M.]

Re: Early 1964 Rochester FI unit

Sounds like a plan Duke, thanks.