The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

[Dick W.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

Gene;

You missed the point, I am not complaining.

The amount of the deduction is not the issue (I actually expected it to be higher).

The comment about the Thunderbird engine is ridiculous on it's face, and adds nothing positive to this discussion.

I have read the Judging Reference Manual, many times, and in it's many variations.

The Standard Deduction concept was one of the really great ideas to come out of that process.

But your comment "Most everything is spelled out so the criteria is clear before the judging starts." absolutely DOES NOT cover this issue.

It really is a simple question, for which it is now apparent there is no simple answer.

The understanding I got from reading the latest issue of The Restorer was that the deduction was a flat 300 points, and done with it (like most of the standard deductions are).

The idea of standard deductions, as we all know, is to level out the peaks and valleys of individual judges and the associated inconsistencies.

That ain't gonna happen in this situation.

The closest answer to the question: What is the deduction for add on aftermarket A/C is - we start we 300 points right off of top, and then we look at the car to see what else needs deductions accounted for.

The second part of that statement is where the inconsistencies will continue to appear.

The amount of the deductions is not the issue under discussion. The fact that we STILL have not leveled out the inconsistencies IS the issue. And it will continue to be an issue, and a pain in the butt for our judges, team leads, and judging chairman until we get the inconsistencies resolved.

And I would still like to encourage people with nice original cars to bring them to our events, even if they added on aftermarket A/C so they can drive the car.

OK, off of my soap box.

Agree with you 100%.

[Pancho T.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

Ed,

I had to read it a couple of times to figure it out.

What the article says is to expect 200-300 points to be lost in the process of judging a car with aftermarket AC (such as Vintage Air) added to it. That is the approximate total for all of the deductions that the judges may take. The deduction doesn't start there, it's the approximate end point. We're told to discuss each car with our Team Leaders to get their input as well given that there will be several complete deductions involved.

Does that make sense?

In any event, judging one will not be high on the list of "fun to do" items, as you'll still never be sure if you made the correct deductions across the board.

The 200 point total was for a C1. The C2 and C3 "should receive a minimum deduction of 300 points"

[Gene M.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

Gene;

You missed the point, I am not complaining.

The amount of the deduction is not the issue (I actually expected it to be higher).

The comment about the Thunderbird engine is ridiculous on it's face, and adds nothing positive to this discussion.

I have read the Judging Reference Manual, many times, and in it's many variations.

The Standard Deduction concept was one of the really great ideas to come out of that process.

But your comment "Most everything is spelled out so the criteria is clear before the judging starts." absolutely DOES NOT cover this issue.

It really is a simple question, for which it is now apparent there is no simple answer.

The understanding I got from reading the latest issue of The Restorer was that the deduction was a flat 300 points, and done with it (like most of the standard deductions are).

The idea of standard deductions, as we all know, is to level out the peaks and valleys of individual judges and the associated inconsistencies.

That ain't gonna happen in this situation.

The closest answer to the question: What is the deduction for add on aftermarket A/C is - we start we 300 points right off of top, and then we look at the car to see what else needs deductions accounted for.

The second part of that statement is where the inconsistencies will continue to appear.

The amount of the deductions is not the issue under discussion. The fact that we STILL have not leveled out the inconsistencies IS the issue. And it will continue to be an issue, and a pain in the butt for our judges, team leads, and judging chairman until we get the inconsistencies resolved.

And I would still like to encourage people with nice original cars to bring them to our events, even if they added on aftermarket A/C so they can drive the car.

OK, off of my soap box.

The inconsistencies are due to different levels of knowledge as what was removed, missing, replaced, modified, etc in the install. The NCRS has no need to detail out the specifics of something that is not even original to the Corvette. DO NOT MAKE MAJOR MODIFICATIONS TO THE CAR and put it in flight judging. NCRS has no need to level out inconsistencies of aftermarket equipment for flight judging because the new classes already accommodates that. I see no reason why vintage air should get this special attention. Next it will be Peter Pan power steering, or Bouncing Joe suspension. No gotta nip it in the butt and halt it now.

NCRS IS IN THE GAME OF VERIFICATIONS OF ORIGINAL CONFIGURATION. Interest in detailing out the specifics of aftermarket kits that modify from original configuration is not in our interest. Anyone that modifies their Corvette has the new class of concourse to present one’s car.

[Edward M.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

The inconsistencies are due to different levels of knowledge as what was removed, missing, replaced, modified, etc in the install.

Hence the reason for Standard Deductions, but this is a Standard Deduction PLUS whatever we inconsistently find wrong.

If the real goal here is to basically tell people with add on aftermarket equipment to not bother having their car flight judged, JUST SAY THAT, and make everyone's life easier.

With this decision / position, the problem will get a lot worse before it gets better (if it gets better at all).

OK, enough time wasted on this topic, a meeting of the minds in not in the immediate future.

[Frank D.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

It just seems to me to be so obvious, and self apparent to anyone involved in NCRS judging that the fewer the modifications made to any car the better insofar as judging outcomes. Do members really need a set of instructions to know that the less you cut, the less you drill, the less you remove and/or replace with non GM aftermarket parts the better off you will do in judging?

I think everybody 'gets that' Don.

I've seen Vintage Air cars get a Top Flight with a 12 pt deduction (a '67 at the 2016 Florida regional) 50 feet from my 63 that got a 70+ point 'hit' which knocked it back to Second Flight. Not complaining, just sharing some data.

When I did a pre-judging survey here and on that "other" site; the 'hit' averaged about 45 points.

To wit, this mod was treated (pretty universally from what I've seen) much more mildly than this new "persona non grata" category.
I think that's the rub to some folks. Anyway, I'll stand by to see how all this gets sorted out...

[Patrick H.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

Hence the reason for Standard Deductions, but this is a Standard Deduction PLUS whatever we inconsistently find wrong.

No, it's not. I read it yet a 4th time just to be sure I got it right when answering your post.

The 200 or 300 points is a guesstimate of the points that will be deducted if a car is judged with aftermarket AC.

Please go back and read the article, or even my post #42 above:

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthread.php?120120-The-Restorer-statement-about-standard-deductions-for-afterarket-A-C&p=826106#post826106

If I could cut-and-paste from the online Driveline I would, but that's not possible.

[Pancho T.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

[Frank D.]

[David H.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

I guess I’m not understanding the word “minimum”. That seems to be the “floor” for the deducts and anything else is on top of that.

After adding up scoring deductions on all items impacted by a/c addition, on all judging sheets, deductions should total a minimum 200 C1 or 300 C2&C3 points.

Dave

[Leif A.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

I guess I’m not understanding the word “minimum”. That seems to be the “floor” for the deducts and anything else is on top of that.

Frank,
I believe your understanding of the word "minimum" is correct. That's where the point deduction begins. As others have mentioned, this is a "restoration" society not a "modify to your own taste" society. Understand, I have zero issues with an owner modifying his/her own car to whatever level they desire...it is, after all, their car. However, the person that does that and then expects those involved with the NCRS to look the other way during judging of a car whose standard is "as delivered from the factory" are going to be sorely disappointed in the results. NCRS, as you know, has added a new class for these type cars, and that should satisfy those who modify their cars to taste.
Of course, IMHO, that new class should be called the "Modified Class" not "Concour". Concour, to me, implies the best of the best of an original car...i.e. Pebble Beach or Amelia Island Concour.

[Patrick H.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

Frank,
I believe your understanding of the word "minimum" is correct.

After adding up scoring deductions on all items impacted by a/c addition, on all judging sheets, deductions should total a minimum 200 C1 or 300 C2&C3 points.

Dave

[Edward M.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

OK, here it is, somebody splain it to me

[Don H.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

This conversation is going in circles, repeatedly covering the same ground. And members are complaining about it.
Now looks like a good time to bring it to a close.