The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

[Michael J.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

very nice

I agree, and this should be obvious to those who know how judging works and have done much of it before. There are many moving parts in what people do to modify their cars for vintage A/C systems, so it can't be one size fits all standard deduction. The new guidelines are very valuable to allow the judging teams to get more consistent about this popular modification.

[Gene M.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

OK, I read the statement in the latest issue of The Restorer about the board's decision to make aftermarket A/C a standard deduction.

The deduction is 200 points on a C1 and 300 points on a C2 or C3.

Both of those amounts are significant enough that the car in question could not do better than Second Flight without some assistance for mileage points, fire extinguisher, etc.

Even then, the car would have to be close to perfect to get better than Second Flight if it has aftermarket A/C (Like Vintage Air) on it.

I am not disagreeing with, or complaining about the decision. I applaud the board / team for coming up with a standard deduction for this issue. Previous judging of cars with add on A/C have been pretty inconsistent. This decision should resolve that inconsistency.

I am just wondering if the significance of this was taken into account when the point values were assigned for the deductions.

In other words, was it the intention to keep cars with aftermarket A/C from being able to achieve no better than Second Flight?

And I do realize, and acknowledge, that Second Flight is still a pretty good award to have.

It does sound like complaining that one can’t get a top flight even though the car is MAJORLY NOT RESTORED CORRECTLY INTENSIONALY. This is not an award where every entrant gets a Lolli pop. Why not just ask to have a thunderbird engine and get top flight it just as obserd. NCRS has a standard to judge by. I suggest you read the judging reference manual. Most everything is spelled out so the criteria is clear before the judging starts.

There is a class for modified corvettes it called the concourse class. You can change, add, or alter anything you want without deductions. The vintage air will be just fine in concourse.

[Al R.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

It's the price one must pay for additional creature comfort. Wonder if this will result in increased demand for factory equipped C2s? It will for sure result in the number of after market AC cars being judged. If the car has once been judged with the aftermarket AC, can it later be removed, returned to it's former life and then be judged as a non aftermarket modified car or is it branded forever? (Much like the ATFE states once a machinegun, always a machinegun, whether converted to semi auto firing or not)

[William F.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

Gene,
Well put! Seems simple to me. You have to make a choice.

[Frank D.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

Edward,

Vintage Air currently shows three different “series” for their AC modification. In addition, they have optional mounting brackets and accessories. These variations negate a single point scoring deduction, hence some what of an “up-in-the-vintage-air” situation. (Sorry for pun)

My friend’s 1963 has a very nice “Front Runner” series Vintage Air. Quick scoring assessment per new guidelines (to me) was significantly above 300 points. Other series Vintage Air require much less modification, so I expect scoring deductions to be somewhat less.

These modifications can touch a lot of items, some less apparent than others. Sorting that scoring out will take some training. What this clarification does do is correct prior wide scoring variance.

Dave

There are even permutations to that. I thought the Vintage Air supplied compressor/alternator brackets looked home-made and too "in-your-face". I bought 63 brackets from LICS and installed them for both items -- much cleaner looking IMO.

But, yes...if the ruling is 300 pts minimum it doesn't much matter and the disenfranchised (like me) will prob not campaign their car.
The 'always a bridesmaid, never a bride' syndrome if you like...

Not whining, but if I can't improve my high regional Second Flight award there isn't much point. I'll stay a member and judge occasionally but that's prob the extend of it. Its a balance between NCRS's avowed goal of giving awards for factory appearance and encouraging such cars to be driven. Take a journey in Central Florida in August in a midyear coupe and you'll get the idea...

[Rich Y.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

.....If the car has once been judged with the aftermarket AC, can it later be removed, returned to it's former life and then be judged as a non aftermarket modified car.....

Of course it can...........Restore the car to it's as delivered condition.

Isn't that what the "R" in NCRS stands for?

I always thought that one of the main selling points for Vintage Air is the fact that it is "easily reversible"

[Frank D.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

Of course it can...........Restore the car to it's as delivered condition.

Isn't that what the "R" in NCRS stands for?

I always thought that one of the main selling points for Vintage Air is the fact that it is "easily reverable"

Its not all that easy....one of the reasons my car has the VA A/C is because the heater box was a crumbling mess...I have some skills in that area having done a few first gen Mustang heater boxes but I'm not sure my car had a good enough foundation to bother with.

As to other issues - you have to avoid several pitfalls (regardless of what the VA instructions say) to turn back the clock (easily):

1) Do NOT remove the radiator core support X brace to fit the condensor (as is often done)
2) Do NOT drill out the original dash knobs to accommodate the Vintage Air control shafts (buy and use repro knobs for this task)
3) Do NOT saw off part of the shifter console extension to fit the evaporator in (its tight but can be installed without butchery)
4) Do NOT discard ANY replaced, original parts (To wit, brackets, heater box, etc..)

I have a document of Vintage Air installation tips that covers these and a dozen other areas; anybody wanting it can PM me...

[Edward M.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

Gene;

You missed the point, I am not complaining.

The amount of the deduction is not the issue (I actually expected it to be higher).

The comment about the Thunderbird engine is ridiculous on it's face, and adds nothing positive to this discussion.

I have read the Judging Reference Manual, many times, and in it's many variations.

The Standard Deduction concept was one of the really great ideas to come out of that process.

But your comment "Most everything is spelled out so the criteria is clear before the judging starts." absolutely DOES NOT cover this issue.

It really is a simple question, for which it is now apparent there is no simple answer.

The understanding I got from reading the latest issue of The Restorer was that the deduction was a flat 300 points, and done with it (like most of the standard deductions are).

The idea of standard deductions, as we all know, is to level out the peaks and valleys of individual judges and the associated inconsistencies.

That ain't gonna happen in this situation.

The closest answer to the question: What is the deduction for add on aftermarket A/C is - we start we 300 points right off of top, and then we look at the car to see what else needs deductions accounted for.

The second part of that statement is where the inconsistencies will continue to appear.

The amount of the deductions is not the issue under discussion. The fact that we STILL have not leveled out the inconsistencies IS the issue. And it will continue to be an issue, and a pain in the butt for our judges, team leads, and judging chairman until we get the inconsistencies resolved.

And I would still like to encourage people with nice original cars to bring them to our events, even if they added on aftermarket A/C so they can drive the car.

OK, off of my soap box.

[Edward M.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

Its not all that easy....one of the reasons my can has the VA A/C is because the heater box was a crumbling mess...I have some skills in that area having done a few first gen Mustang heater boxes but I'm not sure my car had a good enough foundation to bother with.

As to other issues - you have to avoid several pitfalls (regardless of what the VA instructions say) to turn back the clock (easily):

1) Do NOT remove the radiator core support X brace to fit the condensor (as is often done)
2) Do NOT drill out the original dash knobs to accommodate the Vintage Air control shafts (buy and use repro knobs for this task)
3) Do NOT saw off part of the shifter console extension to fit the evaporator in (its tight but can be installed without butchery)
4) Do NOT discard ANY replaced, original parts (To wit, brackets, heater box, etc..)

I have a document of Vintage Air installation tips that covers these and a dozen other areas; anybody wanting it can PM me...

Frank;

At the risk of generating more unwelcome attention to this issue, perhaps a tutorial (or even a Restorer article) on how to install Vintage Air and minimize the modifications / point deductions would be a good idea.

Just a thought.

[Don H.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

A Restorer article on installing VA? I would be very surprised to see that. Very surprised.
The very name of the magazine implies "restoring". Not modifying.

[Domenic T.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

Frank,
Yes, when I used ALL factory parts I found that the core X brace could stay. I did use thin teflon spacers to make sure the condenser was safe but the X can stay. Now I did have to do factory cuts for the top vent and drill for the AC knobs and modify the right vent and a few cuts there.
Back then there was no such thing as judging, just car shows and clubs.
Back then it was a positive to add. Factory was the easiest by far because all the parts were available.

Dom

[Patrick H.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

The understanding I got from reading the latest issue of The Restorer was that the deduction was a flat 300 points, and done with it (like most of the standard deductions are).

The idea of standard deductions, as we all know, is to level out the peaks and valleys of individual judges and the associated inconsistencies.

That ain't gonna happen in this situation.

The closest answer to the question: What is the deduction for add on aftermarket A/C is - we start we 300 points right off of top, and then we look at the car to see what else needs deductions accounted for.

Ed,

I had to read it a couple of times to figure it out.

What the article says is to expect 200-300 points to be lost in the process of judging a car with aftermarket AC (such as Vintage Air) added to it. That is the approximate total for all of the deductions that the judges may take. The deduction doesn't start there, it's the approximate end point. We're told to discuss each car with our Team Leaders to get their input as well given that there will be several complete deductions involved.

Does that make sense?

In any event, judging one will not be high on the list of "fun to do" items, as you'll still never be sure if you made the correct deductions across the board.

[Edward M.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

A Restorer article on installing VA? I would be very surprised to see that. Very surprised.
The very name of the magazine implies "restoring". Not modifying.

I have a seen a few articles on modifying an original car to make it better.

For some reason one that stands out was an article about replacing a correct low watt light bulb in the instrument cluster of a C1 with a higher wattage bulb.

I do understand that there is no real comparison between changing a light bulb and adding A/C.

And my suggestion was not about installing VA, that process is pretty well defined already.

My suggestion was how to minimize the modifications / maintain the most originality when installing VA.

People are going to continue to install VA (and other brand) systems to make their cars more driveable.

Shouldn't we encourage them to minimize the modifications while they are at it?

[Don H.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

It just seems to me to be so obvious, and self apparent to anyone involved in NCRS judging that the fewer the modifications made to any car the better insofar as judging outcomes. Do members really need a set of instructions to know that the less you cut, the less you drill, the less you remove and/or replace with non GM aftermarket parts the better off you will do in judging?

[Edward M.]

Re: The Restorer statement about standard deductions for afterarket A/C

I think it would be interesting.

Start with the Vintage Air instructions that tell you to chop this off, drill that out, etc.

Then go through each one of those "instructions" and explain how to not make that modification.

Some modifications will obviously have to be made, but clearly all of the mods that VA suggests are not necessary.

Seems like a benefit to our members to give them the details on this BEFORE they start making mods.

Just a suggestion.