Rag Joints- 63-82

[Kim C.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

LIC still has the 63-66 std lowers #18-36A and 67 complete 18-37D - all other 63-67 types we have the rebuild kits only.

[Joe R.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

JR------

I'm glad you're so charitable, altruistic, and, most of all, humble.

Your welcome. Somebody's gotta do it!

JR

[Gary R.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

LIC still has the 63-66 std lowers #18-36A and 67 complete 18-37D - all other 63-67 types we have the rebuild kits only.

Thank you Kim for clarifying this for the guys. Guys now is your chance to get them while you can. I can say these are the best on the market
so if you are going to keep your car a long time get one. I have been referring my steering box customers there for years.

Kim I will be ordering some more after the holidays, I have to balance part orders with other costs!!

[Harry S.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

Well, I ordered an 18-36A from LIC tonight. I put an NOS one in one of my 63's last spring and it fixed all my steering problems. I expect the other 63 to need one soon.

Thanks All.

[Michael F.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

Joe L, whose going to get your stash when the time come? the line must be long.

[Joe L.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

Joe L, whose going to get your stash when the time come? the line must be long.

Michael------

I may leave them to the NCM or other museum for display and research purposes only. Some NOS parts need to survive for those purposes.

[Tom L.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

Hopefully someone will know, how close are these parts in function and appearance to C3 rag joints? Just curious to see if they are a SAFER option to the repro's. Thanks!

[Larry M.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

Hopefully someone will know, how close are these parts in function and appearance to C3 rag joints? Just curious to see if they are a SAFER option to the repro's. Thanks!

Tom:

Very late 1969 and later (newer) rag joints have a different input spline for the steering box. So the 1967 couplings cannot be used with these steering boxes unless the box is rebuilt and an older design box shaft is installed. This is what Gary R does for many of those who have him rebuild their steering box.

For those with 1969 cars, you need to look at the coupling you have and compare to the 1967 design to see if it is same or different.

Gary can explain better than me, but I just went thru this helping a friend with his very late 1969 car (Late December 1969 build).

FWIW.

Larry

[Dan A.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

Michael------

I may leave them to the NCM or other museum for display and research purposes only. Some NOS parts need to survive for those purposes.

Based on past performance I would be willing to wager that the NCM would sell your collection of parts off. They seem more interested in money than history and preservation. Wendell Strode appears to have nothing but disdain for NCRS.

[Gary R.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

Larry is correct.

To expand a bit on what Larry said:
With many boxes the worms have issues with the ball screw radius and or teeth. Many boxes have never been rebuilt and MANY of those that were "rebuilt" that I have been sent have bad gears in them. The radius issue affects the preload on the new end bearings. Calling a box rebuilt with a new preload that jumps all over the place is plain lousy work. A new worm will dial in smooth with no choppy preload, however many rebuilders do not have new gears to use so they just reuse worn out parts, I have seen it for the past 10 years. When Tom Riena was alive and running his business he supplied many of the rebuilders with new gears, bearings, kits, etc. Life was good- rebuilt boxes with new gears, GM Rags or Tom's rags worked great, better then new. Then Tom died, 5 years ago, I bought out his new gear stock and was able to offer quality built boxes. Within that time I used up all the C3 D-Flat worms. They are gone and I will not be having any more made at this point of my life. However I have 100's of the C2 worms and the only difference is the spline count and no D-Flat so you need to use a 67 rag which is the same as the 67-E69 used. The heights, rag material were the same. The grounding method is the original B-Copper strap vs the later wire mesh. I don't know if this is a judged item or not but for those that want to drive the car it was the best option. Now I understand that when the present stock is gone that is the end of the quality rags- hence the whole point of this thread.

I have not seen a quality C3 rag in about 3 years, now if someone out there knows where/who has them share the information but the ones I have seen are loose solid rubber with the D-Flat 180* off at 6 o'clock.

Note of interest- I have offered all the rebuilders these new gears to allow them to offer a quality rebuild, with the exception of two no one else acted on them. Some want them for nothing and that is what they will get. So what do I see when a box needs gears & gets "rebuilt" the ends up with me?

I see welded teeth, swapped out used GM gears with no respect to setting the high lash, but the best one- Worm nuts flipped upside down so the narrow part of the taper catches the sector teeth high- how does it work out? It doesn't, it is like turning a box of rocks- yes it's that bad yet these have been sold to vendors and resold to customers for years now. It opened up the market for "jeep" boxes and rack and pinion- not because those are that much better but because many rebuilt boxes shipped to customers are that bad. There are plenty here that has happened to.

I am not mentioning names, there are plenty on here who know about this and most likely many of the rebuilders as well.

I am moving my shop home now, down sizing and getting rid of parts I will no longer need to stock up. Yet those who rebuild still are not interested so buyer beware is all I can tell you. To date I never had one box ever returned to me. To those who will complain I am using this thread to solicite work-not true. I am nothing taking in work until I setup my shop and have plenty of work to keep my busy for what I want to do. This is just a friendly notice on what I see to help those have no clue on how things are today.

Maybe someone will find a quality material to continue building good rags like Saginaw and Tom Reina once did.

One last thing, I am asked many times how much play or "lost motion" should be in a rebuilt box. The answer is -0-, when the box is on high center turning the input should also move the output. To those looking at "original" low mileage boxes look at the lash screw- if you don't see any threads showing save your money or call me for new gears because you will need them.

Merry Xmas one and all- get those rags while you still can.

[Michael L.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

Larry is correct.

To expand a bit on what Larry said:
With many boxes the worms have issues with the ball screw radius and or teeth. Many boxes have never been rebuilt and MANY of those that were "rebuilt" that I have been sent have bad gears in them. The radius issue affects the preload on the new end bearings. Calling a box rebuilt with a new preload that jumps all over the place is plain lousy work. A new worm will dial in smooth with no choppy preload, however many rebuilders do not have new gears to use so they just reuse worn out parts, I have seen it for the past 10 years. When Tom Riena was alive and running his business he supplied many of the rebuilders with new gears, bearings, kits, etc. Life was good- rebuilt boxes with new gears, GM Rags or Tom's rags worked great, better then new. Then Tom died, 5 years ago, I bought out his new gear stock and was able to offer quality built boxes. Within that time I used up all the C3 D-Flat worms. They are gone and I will not be having any more made at this point of my life. However I have 100's of the C2 worms and the only difference is the spline count and no D-Flat so you need to use a 67 rag which is the same as the 67-E69 used. The heights, rag material were the same. The grounding method is the original B-Copper strap vs the later wire mesh. I don't know if this is a judged item or not but for those that want to drive the car it was the best option. Now I understand that when the present stock is gone that is the end of the quality rags- hence the whole point of this thread.

I have not seen a quality C3 rag in about 3 years, now if someone out there knows where/who has them share the information but the ones I have seen are loose solid rubber with the D-Flat 180* off at 6 o'clock.

Note of interest- I have offered all the rebuilders these new gears to allow them to offer a quality rebuild, with the exception of two no one else acted on them. Some want them for nothing and that is what they will get. So what do I see when a box needs gears & gets "rebuilt" the ends up with me?

I see welded teeth, swapped out used GM gears with no respect to setting the high lash, but the best one- Worm nuts flipped upside down so the narrow part of the taper catches the sector teeth high- how does it work out? It doesn't, it is like turning a box of rocks- yes it's that bad yet these have been sold to vendors and resold to customers for years now. It opened up the market for "jeep" boxes and rack and pinion- not because those are that much better but because many rebuilt boxes shipped to customers are that bad. There are plenty here that has happened to.

I am not mentioning names, there are plenty on here who know about this and most likely many of the rebuilders as well.

I am moving my shop home now, down sizing and getting rid of parts I will no longer need to stock up. Yet those who rebuild still are not interested so buyer beware is all I can tell you. To date I never had one box ever returned to me. To those who will complain I am using this thread to solicite work-not true. I am nothing taking in work until I setup my shop and have plenty of work to keep my busy for what I want to do. This is just a friendly notice on what I see to help those have no clue on how things are today.

Maybe someone will find a quality material to continue building good rags like Saginaw and Tom Reina once did.

One last thing, I am asked many times how much play or "lost motion" should be in a rebuilt box. The answer is -0-, when the box is on high center turning the input should also move the output. To those looking at "original" low mileage boxes look at the lash screw- if you don't see any threads showing save your money or call me for new gears because you will need them.

Merry Xmas one and all- get those rags while you still can.

Gary I sent a PM. Please respond when you can.

Mike

[Timothy B.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

Tom:

Very late 1969 and later (newer) rag joints have a different input spline for the steering box. So the 1967 couplings cannot be used with these steering boxes unless the box is rebuilt and an older design box shaft is installed. This is what Gary R does for many of those who have him rebuild their steering box.

For those with 1969 cars, you need to look at the coupling you have and compare to the 1967 design to see if it is same or different.

Gary can explain better than me, but I just went thru this helping a friend with his very late 1969 car (Late December 1969 build).

FWIW.

Larry

Here are some pictures of the Saginaw service replacement rag joint for 67-E69, I still have a few extras.

[Gary R.]

Re: Rag Joints- 63-82

Tim I recall we spoke about those at Carlisle a few years ago, if you want to move them let me know.