1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

[Jay J.]

I have a '64 Convertible, Fuel injection. It had been running with no issues. Recently exhibits the following behavior: 1. ON start up it runs for about 5 seconds at 2500 rpm, then stops running. 2. At first I thought that it might be an electrical problem relating to ignition switch. Occasionally, the switch would stick in the start position when starter was engaged causing me to have to manually turn to run position. I replaced ignition switch and coil (it was getting hot), but neither of these problems cured the issue. 3. the spider has a custom solenoid that opens and closes properly when the ignition switch is bypassed through the ballast on the dash. whether or not it is bypassed, no cure for the problem. Additionally, I can hear the solenoid opening appropriately. 4. spraying starter fluid into air intake causes the engine to run briefly longer than it would otherwise, leading to conclusion that it is a full starvation issue. 5. I have ordered new cable drives (distributor to high pressure fuel pump on FI unit) but am pretty sure that that isn't the problem. That cable spins freely and is obviously engaged at the distributor end. I will install new cable this week and compare length to ensure that at FI end it is also engaged, but again I don't think this is the cause. 6. It would seem that the engine driven fuel is operating properly since no matter how many consecutive times you start the engine, it will start for the 5 seconds. Some fuel is getting to the cylinders. The engine drive pump and the fuel filter are new. 7. I have examined the main diagram and it is intact. It exhibits very restricted movement of about 1/8 inch up and down and I am not sure whether this is normal. I have not removed the diaphragm to determine if there is any restriction below in the housing. I have not tested the other vacuum diaphragm in any way. In my view this is a fuel problem but I am not sure how to isolate or fix it. Any suggestions gladly appreciated. Jay Jason jjason3131@gmail.com

[Don H.]

Re: 1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

Hello Jay
welcome to the club and the Discussion Board.
Sorry I do not know the answer to your problem, but I'm sure our FI advisor John DeGregory does. He visits this forum occasionally.
You might want to drop him a note with the description you have outlined and I'm sure he'll know the cause immediately. You can find his contact info, and that of all Board members, chapter leaders, and special advisors under the Contacts tab in the large tool bar above the club banner at top of this page. And here is his email ----- > johndegreg@aol.com
Good luck sorting out your 64 380 unit.

[Dan H.]

Re: 1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

Hi Jay, just a guess, but your anti siphon valve may have failed, blowing the the tiny ball stop valve out, thus letting all your after start fuel blow back into the float bowl. Have seen this happen, worth a look.
Dan

[John D.]

Re: 1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

Hi Jason, Dan's guess could have some merit. The anti-siphon valve may have failed. But on the other hand I replaced that part twice.
Check valve in the spider could have stuck. It's a new spider I know.
Did you replace the ignition coil with a real Delco Remy coil? Oops. I see your repro coil was getting hot. Or was it an original. Glad you replaced the coil. Hope the ballast resistor wasn't hurt. How about the condenser in the distributor? Put a new one in or test the old one. The condenser has gone thru hell with the very hot coil. I definitely think you should replace it. Back in my Model A Ford days when I was a kid we had more condenser issues that acted just like your fuel car.
Go to NAPA and ask for an RR174. Do not use a NOS Delco Remy condenser as some of them have issues.
A 64-65 is unique in the fact that it will run for about 5 seconds with No drive cable at all. Runs on engine fuel pump pressure. Hows the engine fuel pump?
Get a helper and do the following easy test.
Disconnect a copper nozzle line from a nozzle (in the black plastic nozzle block). with a 5/16" wrench. Get a small jar or tin can and hold it under the line. Remove the coil wire from the cap. Or maybe you won't have to since your car doesn't run anyhow.
Hold the key in the start position and you should see a nice healthy spray out of the nozzles line.
If you do not then you have a fuel restriction. Here's one for you. Make sure the purple wire is connected tight on the micro switch. It is a small black connector that slides onto the bottom "tongue" of the switch.

The main diaphragm movement is ever so slight. I don't know the exact measurement but it's a minute amount.
The new drive cables are improved. You will have more catch going into the distributor.
Hot wire the ballast resistor for the moment. Meaning put a jumper wire across it but only temporarily.
Make sure your distributor shield did not cut a wire. Very common. In fact leave the shield off for now.

The added electric siphon breaker solenoid. Make sure the hot wire is tight on the 12 side of the ballast resistor. Use a testor to determine which side is hot. You said you heard it click. Remember you have two solenoid's now.
Wonder if the burgundy micro switch(Cherry Electric) is OK. Thinking out loud here. Since you used starting fluid to start the car then that cancels out the micro switch which is actually issues as the car would keep running.
I assume you have enough gas in the tank. I assume your engine fuel pump is working. Get ahelper again. The chrome line going into the fuel bowl. Unloosen it a tad. Hold a line wrench on the inlet fitting. The unloosen the chrome line. Get rags and maybe a fire extinguisher just in case. Cover up the battery. Have your helper crank the engine to see if gas is going to squirt out this chrome line at the fitting.
That's all I can think of at the moment. I bet it's going to be something simple. Let me/use know. Thanks, John D.

[Jay J.]

Re: 1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

Thanks for the ideas. I will get a new condenser today and replace it at the same time as the cable you sent that UPS said is being delivered today. I don't think that is going to be the problem, but just chasing down any possibilities.

As for the micro switch it seems to be operating properly and the two wires are firmly attached. The distributor while is off and I have checked the wires from the ballast but will double check. I have jumped the blast directly to the battery, but will jump it from one side to the other. As noted below, however, and because it runs if starter fluid is sprayed into Air meter side, I don't think that it is an electrical problem.

I am convinced that this is a fuel problem. Keep in mind that no matter how many times that I turn the ignition key to the start position, the car will start up for the 5 seconds and go to full cold idle at 2K rpm for that initial period. I could do it 5 or more times consecutively and it would still react the same. Clearly fuel is getting into the system for the start sequence, but the fuel is shutting off for the run sequence. Reading and re-reading the shop manual I am moving more and more to the conclusion that the problem lies with the main control diaphragm and the spill plunger. I know that you restored these (and as noted before privately, I found your initials on the metal part of the diaphragm). I had previously indicated to you that this all happened after driving the car on a particularly hot day (which you have advised me now is probably not a good idea). Could something have gone wrong relating to the diaphragm and its connection to the plunger? I don't see any defect in the diaphragm, but have been very reluctant to take it apart any further. I am certainly not qualified to work on this aspect of the FI system. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

One interesting thing is that after I tried to start it last night, and it quit after 5 seconds, I shut it off and slightly unscrewed the fuel line leading into the top of the high pressure fuel pump. Even with no power on, the fuel immediately began to squirt at high pressure out of the loosened fitting. That tells me the engine driven pump works fine and there is no restriction through the in-line filter. I was surprised at the residual pressure of the fuel in the line, however. Is this normal, or could it indicate a problem?

As for the spider, if the solenoid was failing, I would not think that the car would start at all. Fuel is running through it and to the cylinders for the initial 5 seconds. I'm trying to understand the difference between the cranking signal valve and the enrichment diaphragm and how they work. I can tell you that on initial cranking the rod/piston which comes out of the back side of the enrichment diaphragm immediately retracts as it is reacting to the starting vacuum, but as the engine dies, it returns to its original position. I assume that this is normal operation and is not causing the problem.

Regarding the Anti Siphon Valve, I don't see instructions on how to replace. I assume that the manifold must be removed as it seems to be an integral part. I note that you replaced it twice, but that is a two edged sword, in that it broke twice. Could be broken again? I'd like to eliminate this as a cause if it is relatively simple to replace. I see that there is a seller of these on Ebay, item no 281507144832

Obviously, I really appreciate all of the help for this newbie. My mech skills are average and this is one of 6 or so vintage cars that I own, the first Corvette. Love the car and intend to drive and preserve it for the next generation, but a little frustrated by this problem. Thanks to all

[Jay J.]

Re: 1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

One correction, meant to say the fuel metering body, not the manifold in relation the location of the anti siphon valve. sorry, J

[Dan H.]

Re: 1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

Hi Jay, if you have an electric shut off anti siphon valve, you don't need the one in the fuel meter. I replaced mine with a brass plug, one less thing to worry about.
Dan

[Patrick C.]

Re: 1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

I had a similar problem with my 64 Fuelie. Double check that the ballast resister is not open. Better yet, just jumper it and see if the car runs.

Pat

[Jay J.]

Re: 1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

I had a similar problem with my 64 Fuelie. Double check that the ballast resister is not open. Better yet, just jumper it and see if the car runs.

Pat

Update to all:

jumped ballast

replaced high pressure pump cable

replaced condenser

engine still non operative as before. Welcome other ideas. J

[Larry M.]

Re: 1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

My two cents....not a mechanic but some things do/don't make sense to me.

The micro switch actuated by the bell crank in normally closed and it only gets 12V when starting. So in cold start you set the choke and leave your foot off the pedal, the selenoid gets power and dumps starting gas when you move the ignition to START. For hot start you press the pedal a little to OPEN the switch so when you switch to start there is no extra fuel. I don't know how you would hear the solenoid work over the noise of the starter. You'd need to use a test lead with 12V with the car off to hear it. So my guess is that, if you use the cold start routine above, that the engine is running on the fuel dumped in through the solenoid and once you release the start key you run out of gas. The siphon valve thought above is a good one.

Also, FI is very sensitive to vacuum leaks. You should measure your vacuum. There are discussion on this forum about it. If you have a Duntov 30/30 as original or any other high lift cam then you won't have much...maybe 10 inches oir so; any leak is a killer.

Thirdly, the gas connection you discuss is from the fuel pump to the fuel meter resivoir(sp.). The high pressure pump is just the black thing the drive cable goes into. It's input and output are internal and you can't see them. But the test John discusses above will tell you if it is producing if you take power off the selonoid either by moving the bell crank or disconnecting the purple wire.

[John D.]

Re: 1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

I had a similar problem with my 64 Fuelie. Double check that the ballast resister is not open. Better yet, just jumper it and see if the car runs.

Pat

Hi Pat, I think I mentioned that in my long letter.. But glad you repeated it.
Here's one I have told you guys before. Many years ago an MD in the Pittsburgh chapter had a '64 FI car. I restored the unit on it. The car would start and quickly quit running. I drove long distance to his house and could not find the problem (at first).
Finally I decided to see if there was any gas in the tank. The gas cap almost took my arm off. Big time pressure built up because of Docs rusty cap. I asked for a shop rag to put in the tank instead of the gas cap. Car started and ran perfect.
Another time it was the ballast resistor and the list goes on.
Here's another you have to look out for on any carb or FI distributor. THe black ground wire on the points plate. It may look good to you but how do you know if its any good.
Don Baker told me he replaces every one of those wires with the correct black wire than has a ton of copper stand wires in it. I think
Don found some old wire that had about 70 or more strands of wire. But I forget
Not the auto store wire today that only has a few strands of wire.

Solenoid clicking in Jason's 64. If Jason just turns the key on he may be able to hear the added siphon breaker solenoid click. But not the starting solenoid unless his ears are better than mind. Oops. I now have $7500 buck hearing aids. Whew!!!! John

Jason, How's the new drive cable you got?

[Jay J.]

Re: 1964 Corvette Fuel Injection, non running car

Sorry for being off line on this issue for so long. Taking care of some non-Corvette issues. Problem totally resolved by replacement of the anti-siphon valve by George Schreffler. Like many of the people posting above, a terrific source of knowledge and skill. I removed the fuel injection unit and, as he predicted, when I turned it over, I could hear the valve rattling around inside. He is in Harrisburg, which is relatively close to Williamsburg VA so I drove it up and a week later had it back, all for a very reasonable price. Re-installed it on the car and now runs like the proverbial Timex -- takes a licking and keeps on ticking. Thanks to all for weighing in and again my apologies for the late reply.