67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

[Ken A.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

The needle reacts to load changes differently when using a solid state VR vs. a mechanical one. It's very easy to tell the difference between the two.

How can you say this without ever using our product?

[Jim D.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

How can you say this without ever using our product?

I wasn't referring to your product specifically but solid state VR's in general like the VR715. Does your product have some sort of a delay built into it so that it doesn't react to load changes instantaneously like the other solid state VR's do? Like Phillip posted above, there IS a difference.

[Ken A.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

Looks to me like both of you are misinformed, but every one has an opinion. My opinion is don't knock it unless you've tried it. Our VR is undetectable in both physical appearance & operation.

[Joe R.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

Gentlemen,

The Voltage Regulator has nothing to do with the bounce of the pointer when the blinkers are selected or the brake pedal is depressed. The voltage regulator just charges the battery from the alternator when the voltage is low. If the battery is charged the voltage regulator does not see the bouncing pointer of the Amp? Meter! It's a voltage meter anyway.
When the Voltage Regulator sees low voltage it kicks in the relay and connects the alternator or generator to the battery to bring it back up to the preset which is set by the manufacturer or builder. It's adjustable.
It doesn't matter whether it's an electronic regulator or a mechanical regulator (relay).

Bouncing Betty is caused by a bad Amp Meter. It has dampening fluid and it has dried up or leaked out. After all it could be 50 years old.

Cheers,

JR

[Donald H.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

The instructions with the K&B conversion kit do in fact leave the two wire wound resistors in place. I chose to remove the complete underside so that I could replate the base and the lugs. Mine were very rusty. I did not do the coversion with the intent of using them in judging.

However, does anyone have actual flight judging results where the car got a deduct for having a converted VR? I have a friend with a Caldwell conversion and he has been through flight judging (chapter), and Blooming Gold and he got no deducts. I've heard the needle deflection issue, and I understand they do react differently, and can see a potential issue with PV. I've talked to two 300 plus level judges and neither though an Ops during flight would not be an issue with the solid state VR.

[Jim D.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

Looks to me like both of you are misinformed, but every one has an opinion. My opinion is don't knock it unless you've tried it. Our VR is undetectable in both physical appearance & operation.

Ken, Like I posted above, I have not tried yours so it may be different than the VR715. That's why I asked but you didn't answer. An electro-mechanical VR has to open and close points depending on the load. That takes a specific amount of time/delay to accomplish. From my research I've found that solid state VR's do the same up but at a speed of up to 2000 times a second ie: instantaneously. That difference is very noticeable especially when adding a large load like turning on the headlights. I've converted many to solid state VR's and can easily tell the difference. Not an opinion, simply real world facts. Whether or not one gets a deduction in Ops depends on the knowledge/experience level and discretion of the judge at that time.

[Jim D.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

Gentlemen,

The Voltage Regulator has nothing to do with the bounce of the pointer when the blinkers are selected or the brake pedal is depressed. The voltage regulator just charges the battery from the alternator when the voltage is low. If the battery is charged the voltage regulator does not see the bouncing pointer of the Amp? Meter! It's a voltage meter anyway.
When the Voltage Regulator sees low voltage it kicks in the relay and connects the alternator or generator to the battery to bring it back up to the preset which is set by the manufacturer or builder. It's adjustable.
It doesn't matter whether it's an electronic regulator or a mechanical regulator (relay).

Bouncing Betty is caused by a bad Amp Meter. It has dampening fluid and it has dried up or leaked out. After all it could be 50 years old.

Cheers,

JR

Joe, I respectfully disagree. A fully charged battery will read between 12.6 & 12.7 volts. When the engine is running, the alt. output is controlled by the VR to maintain approx. 14+ volts. It's the lag time of an electro-mechanical VR maintaining that voltage when a large load is added to the system that shows up in the needle movement of the gauge. I'm not talking about when they lose the damping fluid. That's a completely different issue.
To anyone that's going to do the conversion ( I've done several) - before you change the VR, run your engine at about 1500 RPM and turn on your headlights while watching your amp meter. Then do the same after the conversion. The difference is so obvious Stevie Wonder could see it.

[Joe R.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

Joe, I respectfully disagree. A fully charged battery will read between 12.6 & 12.7 volts. When the engine is running, the alt. output is controlled by the VR to maintain approx. 14+ volts. It's the lag time of an electro-mechanical VR maintaining that voltage when a large load is added to the system that shows up in the needle movement of the gauge. I'm not talking about when they lose the damping fluid. That's a completely different issue.
To anyone that's going to do the conversion ( I've done several) - before you change the VR, run your engine at about 1500 RPM and turn on your headlights while watching your amp meter. Then do the same after the conversion. The difference is so obvious Stevie Wonder could see it.

[Jim D.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

Obviously, you've never done a comparison that I described. If you had, you too would know the difference.

[Anthony S.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

William, try tightening the connections at the horn relay (and checking other parts of the circuit connections) prior to anything else.... Tony

[Richard M.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

I was playing around with converting a stock C2 VR to solid state. I took a non working one, stripped down to the bare base and took the Duralast VR715 internals and mounted them in the base (pictures 1,2, & 3). By the way, the VR715 is made in Mexico per the box.

We had a chapter meet at ZIP in Richmond and I did a tech demo of my mod. David Walker, of ZIP, said they were adding the K&B unit to their inventory and gave me one to try. (picture 4, 5, & 6).

I've been running a VR715 for a couple of years now, so I know they work. I can't attest to their reliability beyond that.

I have not tested the K&B conversion yet, but will do that this week when I get around to it. I don't know the first thing about electronics, but it does look to be a very high quality produced piece.

I'm planning to chart the charging voltage at idle and 1500 RPM for the stock VR, the VR715, and the K&B unit. Any suggestion on other measured test would be appreciated.

Don

Don, Thanks for posting those pictures of both the VR 715 and the K & B units. I like the quality appearance and ruggedness of the K & B unit. The heat sink for the electronic voltage regulator(tall object with the screw & nut) is a important feature and to me is a sign of a good design.

It's obvious to me which one I'd prefer to use for a conversion. I wish I had a C2 here to play around with and do that using the K & B product.

Getting back to the bouncing meter issue, 2 questions, one for Joe Ray and one for Ken Anderson.

this question is for Joe Ray.....

JR, can the dampening fluid be replenished on the later C2 gauges? I've seen it done on a '63 Fuel Gauge as those can come apart, but what about the later gauges?

this question is for Ken Anderson.....

Ken, do your reproduction gauges, where applicable, use a dampening fluid?

Rich

[Donald H.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

One more follow up to this thread. I decided to modify the K&B installation instructions for their solid state VR conversion kit. K&Bs instructions have you drill out the rivets and replace with small machine screws to hold everything together. Per Ken Anderson's post (#14 above) indicates they say to leave the wire wound resistors in place and the installation is mostly not noticeable. However, with a good flashlight and mirror it is pretty easy to see the screw heads on an installed unit.

So, I decided to modify the installation to make it impossible to see any modifications without taking the cover. First, all the disclaimers:

YES - I have violated all warranties expressed or implied with my modifications to the K&B installation instructions.
YES - I know that this unit may or may not pass Ops during flight judging.
YES - I know that likely the unit will not pass PV.

What I did was remove the stock operational parts of the VR by using my dremel and cut-off wheel from the top side. From the bottom side there is no indication of any changes (see first picture). I then soldered short pieces of 14 gauge wire to the top side of the four rivets that correspond to the four connectors that the wiring harness plugs into. I then mounted the K&B unit to four threaded nylon spacers mounted to the K&B unit with nylon screws. Using JB Weld, I cemented the Unit (the nylon spaces) to the VR base such that the ends of the 14 gauge wire protrudes up through the corresponding holes in the K&B unit. I then soldered the wire ends to the K&B unit. and soldered the K&B ground wire to the VR base. One other thing needed was to make the wire wound resistor (the one in the middle of the unit) inoperable. K&Bs instructions have you actually cut this resistor, however, I simply bent back the end retainers, removed the resistor, unrolled some of the resistor wire and snipped it off.

One final note. I tested a stock VR (at operating temperature), the solid state VR715 and the K&B unit. What I found was that the stock VR was overcharging at both idle, 750 rpms, and at 1500 rpms. I was getting 16 plus volts. I know the stock unit is adjustable.

Both the VR715 and K&B units had reading at 14 to 14.2 volts at both idle and 1500 rpms.

Don

[Ronald L.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

No answer - can the fluid be replaced?

[Donald H.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

Ron, I answered your Email, but just in case. The K&B part number is 1119515. I got mine from ZIP and their part number is ES-634.

Don Harris

[Ken A.]

Re: 67 ammeter oscillates/bounces

this question is for Joe Ray.....

JR, can the dampening fluid be replenished on the later C2 gauges? I've seen it done on a '63 Fuel Gauge as those can come apart, but what about the later gauges? Yes, Delco used a special tool for tachs & it will do gauges.

this question is for Ken Anderson.....

Ken, do your reproduction gauges, where applicable, use a dampening fluid? Yes, all air cores gauges use this method.

Rich[/QUOTE]