Factory applied material vs overrestored points

[Rick A.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

has everyone had the opportunity to view the current FLOW CHART? Sounds to me NO......

[Bob B.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

has everyone had the opportunity to view the current FLOW CHART? Sounds to me NO......

I have spent hours reading and re-reading that flow chart & Judging guide For the life of me, it still leaves a LOT of room for imprecise judging and subjective interpretation. I HAVE NOT been to a National Convention or any meet this year that had a class on paint and body judging, I will be in San Antonio and hope to learn a lot. I had a brand new Corvette every year 68 on thru the 70's on into the 2000's
99% of the cars today have OVERRESTORED paint , 20 % deduct seems right. Wrong color, shade, metallic, shiney jams, let alone trim tag deviation-
THAT gets my 100% deduct They may never let me judge again but lets agree on this,

[Gene M.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Not meaning to offend, but I simply do not understand doing something other than my best possible work in order to comport with an imprecise judging guide and subjective interpretations thereof. Where does one stop when creating intentional runs or skimping on applied media on the lower surfaces of a vehicle? Wouldn't a more sensible standard be one that mimics the way GM intended a car to be when it left the factory absent the many errors introduced by human factors in the assembly process.

Basic theme is to RESTORE the Corvette to the way it was in every detail. To make it better or the way it was intended to look is creation of a custom car, not restoration. There are other organizations that look for perfect cars rather than restored car. NCRS by the charter is dealing with RESTORATION and deviations of any type is dealt with in deducted points. One can customize their Corvette as much as ons wants but expect deductions and accept such lost points for them.

[Gene M.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Or get more realistic on paint and not require owner to make certain areas ugly as long as color and associated factors such as size of metallic particles on metallic paints are correct. IMHO.

It sounds like one prefers a custom Corvette cLass as opposed to RESTORATION. The picking and choosing of what one wants to improve on as opposed to what GM sent out the door is one's option. But also be willing to loose points.

[Gene M.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

I have spent hours reading and re-reading that flow chart & Judging guide For the life of me, it still leaves a LOT of room for imprecise judging and subjective interpretation. I HAVE NOT been to a National Convention or any meet this year that had a class on paint and body judging, I will be in San Antonio and hope to learn a lot. I had a brand new Corvette every year 68 on thru the 70's on into the 2000's
99% of the cars today have OVERRESTORED paint , 20 % deduct seems right. Wrong color, shade, metallic, shiney jams, let alone trim tag deviation-
THAT gets my 100% deduct They may never let me judge again but lets agree on this,

Bob,
The paint flow chart is just that a path not definition or details of what is wrong and right. I get the sense you know what original paint should look like. But you have issue attaching a number to access a deviation from it. Looking at your profile it shows few judging points of experience. I invite you to participate in the judging program as well as the advanced judges classes offered. Experienced judges are very willing to share their knowledge and experiences at the regional and national meets. Also the observer judges option is educational.
But understand this is a subjective thing no two persons will add 2+2 and get 4 some get 5 others get 3.

[Bob B.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Gene, correct, I have been out of NCRS judging for years BUT, I am trying to learn the correct current way

[Rick A.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

so, you have seen the new paint flow chart that went into effect after 2016 National? I was hoping to find it in a thread and do NOT see it listed?
David Brigham, National Judging Chairman has presented the flowchart in many different fora and it has been available as a handout at all the events. It is a VERY LOGICAL way to ascertain exactly how, why to deduct / not deduct 0; 20; 30; 70; 100% as you move through the various steps of the flow.

[William F.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Amen, Bob!

[William F.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

No, I'm not into custom Corvettes at all, not even the "new alternative" classes for judges. Just think requiring a poor paint job to get max points is unrealistic. A good BCC paint job protects the car, can be considered restoring, if color and metallic are correct IMHHO.

[Edward B.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Looked at it another way how do judges of classic Ferraris, say a 250 GTO or 275 and Mercedes, say a gullwing, judge the paint of these cars? Whether a good modern paint job or want some factory sloppiness (if there was any on these cars originally)

In order to score really well under the NCRS system it sees that one must duplicate a random sloppiness which was acceptable to GM but would never have been allowed out the door at either Ferrari or Mercedes-Benz. It seems strange that NCRS chooses to celebrate the shortcomings of the American production line quality control as compared to the European standards of the same era. To me, "over restoration" kicks in with changes such as chrome engine pieces that were never supplied by the factory, it does not pertain to doing the neatest job possible using materials that are as close in formulation to those used by the factory as allowed by today's environmental regulations.

[Roy S.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

In order to score really well under the NCRS system it sees that one must duplicate a random sloppiness which was acceptable to GM but would never have been allowed out the door at either Ferrari or Mercedes-Benz. It seems strange that NCRS chooses to celebrate the shortcomings of the American production line quality control as compared to the European standards of the same era. To me, "over restoration" kicks in with changes such as chrome engine pieces that were never supplied by the factory, it does not pertain to doing the neatest job possible using materials that are as close in formulation to those used by the factory as allowed by today's environmental regulations.

Did you know that federal law excludes lacquer VOC count from paint shops totals, if applied to classic cars during the restoration process? It does or did when I was selling paint, do not think it has changed. What does that speak to with respect to environmental regulations? It says some states have banned its use but the federal government has not. It says that production shops prefer to spray the less labor intensive product that gives an instant shine everywhere, and yes most restoration shops are production shops. I don't have a dog in this discussion, just want to stress the point lacquer is allowed and specifically excluded from the VOC count if used in restoration, you just don't here that, because it is labor intensive for the same look.

[Rick A.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

and, you the owner can choose to adhere to NCRS guidelines and score appropriately or you can choose to do it YOUR way and score appropriately - you can choose both.

and, yes BCC paint job can be "massaged" to APPEAR as a factory finish if you choose to do so - again your choice as the owner

[Gene M.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Did you know that federal law excludes lacquer VOC count from paint shops totals, if applied to classic cars during the restoration process? It does or did when I was selling paint, do not think it has changed. What does that speak to with respect to environmental regulations? It says some states have banned its use but the federal government has not. It says that production shops prefer to spray the less labor intensive product that gives an instant shine everywhere, and yes most restoration shops are production shops. I don't have a dog in this discussion, just want to stress the point lacquer is allowed and specifically excluded from the VOC count if used in restoration, you just don't here that, because it is labor intensive for the same look.

Right you are Roy. Most shops want to just spray a finish clear and avoid all the work of wet sanding, polishing, and buffing to get a shine. To get a finish that replicates the originals of the 50's and 60's is not in body shop/restoration shops realm of interest. They seek more $$$$ per hour and less effort and put product out the door. Fewer and fewer owners paint their own cars but those same owners want the big prize not knowing what it takes to create a finish to appear original. Base clear is just wrong. The shine or luster s/b in the paint not on top of it. Anybody that knows about paint understands what I said.

[Tracy C.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

... The NCRS system is supposed to be presented to look original. This acceptance range has gotten so wide over the years, it is almost meaningless as far as “restoration” is concern. It appears the goal today is to make owners happy with little deductions for attaining the 97% or better scoring. By having higher scores the attendance and support is expected to be better. IMHO
But all that really has nothing to do with how a restored paint job should look.....

Now understand we are not supposed to be seeking pretty, perfect, overly shined, flawless, perfect paint jobs. The representation of what they should look like has for the NCRS organization has gotten lost.IMHO.......

Gene, I agree 100%, especially with the last sentence in the quote above. I know of a particular Tasco Turquoise 1960 owned by one of our chapter members that had one of the most realistic representations of factory applied lacquer I have seen. The car received no deductions on the paint at our chapter meet and when taken to a regional in Texas last year, the owner had to appeal to a very high level to keep from getting a full deduct on paint. Why? because it wasn't "pretty" enough. Some of our exterior judges are losing sight of how a factory applied finish should appear. When a realistic representation is surrounded by a sea of over restored easter eggs, of course it will look out of place.

Many owners want to have their cake and eat it too...and we are bending over backwards to accommodate.

I was afraid this would eventually happen...

tc

[Brian K.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Just a quick note the Lacquer sprayed at the factory was a special reflow formula that was NEVER available in service to the public (it's only original once), also the Lacquer of the 70's isn't the Lacquer or 2017. No Lead many toner's have change or gone the way of the Dodo bird (heck only PPG makes it), it's a good chance Riverside red of the 60's won't match Riverside red of 2017 (unless you custom tint to match). The Lacquer of today takes twice as much product for coverage and is terrible in longevity (if you drive the car) and cost's the same in $$$ as current modern paint. As a painter with 30 years experience and 1000's of cars painted, Lacquer is no harder to spray than BC/CC or Single stage. They take about the same amount of time and materials to apply, if anything modern paint requires much more prep work since the slightest flaw will show up in a BC/CC job but will be almost invisible in Lacquer due to it lack luster shine.