Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison - NCRS Discussion Boards

Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • December 31, 1992
    • 15604

    Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison

    I posted the following to another thread, but the question gets asked enough I think it deserves its own thread.

    I've attached (with permission) three test sheets from George's rebuilt '65 L-84 back in 2001. There are three tests, and the engine is basically a "stock rebuild" - .060" overbore, with OE replacement 30-30 cam and forged, 5.3cc dome pistons. The heads received a valve reseat, but no "massaging" for improved flow, so they are representative of typical Flint-machined heads. Gasket thickness is not verified, but as is typical I am currently assuming that it has a thick composition gasket which would place the CR at something close to 10.25:1 assuming nominal deck heights, which were not measured.

    Download the pdf and we can compare. Look at page three, and ignore the data about headers and mufflers. This configuration had the OE manifolds routed into the 3" dyno exhaust system with no mufflers. Correction is STP so this engine is representative of the configuration and SAE gross test procedure that Chevrolet used to establish the advertised SAE gross ratings.

    Note that the 321/332 torque/power ratings are 92/89 percent of the advertised 350/375 HP ratings that can also be expressed as actual SAE gross torque/power being 8/11 percent lower than the advertised ratings, which is typical of the era. Sorry guys, that's the way it was back then. Honest ratings did not come into effect until the new SAE net procedures were first implemented in 1971.

    Massaging the heads would have improved torque and power by close to ten percent, which would about the achieve the advertised ratings.

    Now let's look at the two tests on page 1 and 2. These were back to back tests within about five minutes and the exhaust system consisted of the OE manifolds and full OE sidepipe system that routed to the dyno cell exhaust system with no downstream mufflers.

    Sheets 1 and 2 torque/power average about 291/293 or about 91/88 percent of sheet three and the only difference is the addition of the sidepipes, so sidepipes alone knock down torque/power by 9/12 percent.

    Now we can get some insight into how restrictive the sidepipe system is compared to the under-the-car exhaust. I have dyno data for two "327 LT-1" configurations, both tested with OE exhaust manifolds and measured CR averaging about 10.4:1. Both have the ...461 OE aluminum manifold, OE Holley, and LT-1 cam with nicely massaged heads. One was tested on a lab dyno at 356 GHP and the other on a chassis dyno with under-the-car exhaust at about 270 with SAE air density correction. Using 0.85 driveline/tire efficiency that would be about 318 SAE net at the flywheel, which yields a 0.89 net/gross conversion factor.

    About half of this net-gross difference is the lower air density correction of SAE net compared to STP used for SAE gross, and the rest is the exhaust system and front end accessories. Of the latter, only an alternator and clutch fan that does not tighten absorbs only a couple of horsepower, so from a practical standpoint we can say that half the net/gross difference is air density correction and the other half is exhaust pumping loss.

    Given the above the under-the-car exhaust system pumping loss is about 19 HP or about 5.3 percent.

    Sidepipes ate up 39 GHP on George's L-84, which is about 11.8 percent, so we can conclude that sidepipes cost about double the parasitic pumping power as the under-the-car system, which is significant!

    Duke
    Attached Files
  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • December 31, 1992
    • 15604

    #2
    Re: Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison

    ...some additional info. The "327 LT-1 tested on the lab dyno that started life as a '65 L-79 was tested with both OE 2.5" manifolds/OE front pipes and 1 5/8" dyno headers, both systems being routed into the 3" dyno exhaust system with no mufflers. All data uses STP correction so it is effectively SAE gross. CR averaged 10.35:1 across the eight cylinders and 100LL avgas was used to ensure no detonation during the tests.

    With manifolds the best torque and power from multiple tests was 338 lb-ft @ 3700 and 356 GHP @ 6400, 45 degress total WOT spark advance.

    With the headers the best torque/power from multiple tests was 358lb-ft @ 4400 and 369 GHP @ 6500, 41 degrees Total WOT advance.

    Headers/open exhaust increased peak torque by 5.9 percent and peak power by 3.7 percent compared to manifolds/open exhaust.

    Since exhaust back pressure negates some of the wave dynamics effects, I expect in the car with the under the car exhaust the difference between headers and manifolds would be cut in half.

    These tests show that the OE 2.5" manifolds and 2.5" under-the-car pipes/mufflers are very efficient - probably the lowest restriction OE exhaust system of the era.

    Duke
    Last edited by Duke W.; October 20, 2016, 02:33 PM.

    Comment

    • Michael G.
      Expired
      • September 10, 2015
      • 32

      #3
      Re: Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison

      Duke, dyno data aside, I've always struggled to understand why sidepipes are more "restrictive" than undercar exhaust. Intuitively, if an exhaust is louder it stands to reason that it is also less restrictive. Sidepipes are definitely louder, so how can they actually be more restrictive?

      Comment

      • Duke W.
        Beyond Control Poster
        • December 31, 1992
        • 15604

        #4
        Re: Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison

        Louder doesn't necessarily mean less restrictive. It has to do with muffler efficiency.

        Sidepipe core diameter is only about 1.875" and then there are the "upsets" that stick into the flow path, which are what cause some sound attenuation, but not very efficiently.

        The under-the-car exhaust core diameter is nearly 2.5", and the large volume reverse flow mufflers are very efficient, especially the off-road system.

        The general belief is that reverse flow mufflers are not efficient. That's not true, and as a general rule, the greater the muffler internal volume, the more efficient it is.

        At our SoCal chapter meet last week we had a 15K mile L-71 that was owned by Reggie Jackson for about ten years. It has a set of fresh NOS N-11 rear sections and IMO the sound doesn't get any better than that. Plus they are very efficient, but don't increase interior noise to the point where you want to crawl into the backseat of a Camry after being on the freeway for five minutes in a sidepipe Corvette.

        The sidepipe muffler design is very inefficient. It may look cool and even sound good to some, but from and engineering standpoint, they suck. As John Hinckley has said many times, the sidepipe exhaust system was driven by marketing, not engineering, but the engineering guys meet the requirement as best they could given the limited space they had to work with.

        Duke
        Last edited by Duke W.; October 21, 2016, 11:16 AM.

        Comment

        • Gene M.
          Extremely Frequent Poster
          • March 31, 1985
          • 4232

          #5
          Re: Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison

          Is the last two columns air /fuel ratio? If so why does the set up with headers go up on the right side compared to the left?

          By the way great looking at real data, thanks for sharing.

          Comment

          • Duke W.
            Beyond Control Poster
            • December 31, 1992
            • 15604

            #6
            Re: Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison

            Recall I said to ignore the "headers" note. Sheet 3 is manifolds (no mufflers) into the dyno cell exhaust system. Headers were not used in any tests.

            I doubt if the sheet 3 right bank A/F data is valid. It's too consistent and 17+ is near the lean misfire limit, so the engine would have run poorly and the test likely aborted.

            The same applies to all the A/F data on sheets 1 and 2. Ignore it.

            The sheet 3 left bank A/F ratio data appears valid - varying from 12.70 to 13.29, and I want to see it in the range of 12.5-13.5.

            Also I note that the FI system A/F data is more consistent across the range than a typical carburetor that typically starts off overly rich and leans out at higher revs, but as long as it doesn't get leaner than 13.5 at the top end, that's okay. Overrich at the bottom end isn't a big deal because the engine passes through the bottom end rev range quickly when accelerating.

            Duke

            Comment

            • Steven B.
              Very Frequent User
              • April 11, 2012
              • 233

              #7
              Re: Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison

              A lot of the popular mufflers in the 60's were a straight through glass pack design like the Cherry Bombs and Thrush glass packs. You could see straight through and everyone concluded that they were less restrictive. The problem is that in order to abate some of the sound, they were constructed with holes punched in the bore to allow the glass to muffle the exhaust noise. This disrupted laminar flow. Side pipes have a restriction as well although I don't believe that they have the perforations like the glass packs did (or do). A good reverse flow muffler turns out to be less restrictive than a straight through muffler because of the way they are constructed. Do side pipes look good? IMHO, Yes. Are they more efficient, absolutely not.

              Comment

              • Duke W.
                Beyond Control Poster
                • December 31, 1992
                • 15604

                #8
                Re: Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison

                Minor correction, but at WOT exhaust system flow is fully turbulent (Reynold's number > 2100). Some straight through "glasspacks" have a louvered inner core, which is pretty efficient, but the cheaper ones have holes punched from the outside that leave an "upset" that protrudes into the flow path. This reduces the effective flow diameter by creating vortices.

                In any fluid flow system the smallest restriction will limit flow to what it would be if all other parts of the system were equally restrictive. If you have a two-inch pipe and put a one-inch diameter restrictor in it, it will flow about the same as a one-inch pipe. This is equivalent to the old expression: a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

                I recall the first "scientific" test of mufflers was in the seventies and the Corvair Turbo muffler outflowed most is not all the straight through glasspacks. Given that the turbocharger provides some sound attenuation, the muffler didn't have to have that many baffles, and a lot of aftermarket manufacturers started offering "turbo" mufflers to the Corvair design.

                One of the best current aftermarket mufflers is the Maganflow "S-bend" straight through type. It's oval shaped like a reverse flow muffler, but with either side/side, or side/center nipples. (It's flows equally well in either direction.) The smooth perforated inner core is surrounded by a thin stainless steel blanket topped with fiberglass. It has excellent flow characteristics, while being amazingly quiet - much more so than the old "cherry bombs"

                I have one friend who has these on a '65 L-76, and I think they were bolt on because you can buy them with integrated inlet adapters allowing them to be clamped to the OE rear exhaust pipes when properly cut, like the GM OE replacement base mufflers.

                The core is just under 2.5" diameter and you can fit 2.5" tail pipes that will fit through the '65 valence panel bezels. It looks and sounds great without excess interior noise and probably flows better than the OE off-road system.

                Duke

                Comment

                • Steven B.
                  Very Frequent User
                  • April 11, 2012
                  • 233

                  #9
                  Re: Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison

                  I still have one of the boxes that a set of turbo mufflers came in. I had a 67 Camaro SS/RS with the stock behind-the-axle muffler It also had a set of resonators behind the headers. I changed the exhaust system around 1978, and I believe there was an improvement. It was a bit louder but not that much. They did a good job.
                  Steve

                  Comment

                  • Michael M.
                    Frequent User
                    • October 31, 2004
                    • 64

                    #10
                    Re: Sidepipes, under the car exhaust power comparison

                    I have a set of Magnaflows on my 71. They have a mellow sound,not too loud. Love the exhaust note when going through the gears.
                    Mike

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    Searching...Please wait.
                    An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                    Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                    An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                    Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                    An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                    There are no results that meet this criteria.
                    Search Result for "|||"