Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

[Jim S.]

The following car shows on the original invoice and warranty card as eng no. F0618RD and that it came w/air. RD is a 300hp manual w/o air and RQ is air. When you look at the stamp it appears that the D was replaced by a Q. This car also was a Bloomington Gold Survivor by the second owner in 1994. I cant imagine anyone changing the RD which is already a high horse car to a Q just to cover the air (air looks very original). Maybe they were out of Q blocks since this car was made at the end of the production year? When the dealer ordered air the factory added the Q for the air?

So. just to recap. Documentation shows factory air with an RD car but D was changed to Q. I don't think the first two owners would have changed it and I cant imagine anybody changing it after being judged?

Your thought???

Thanks
Jim

[Loren L.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

And what does Bloomington say was the stamping in 1994? Wouldn't that have been EARLY in Survivor judging? I was there the first year and talked with a gentleman from my home town in ND whose nephew (high school) had convinced him to get his low mileage silver '65 coupe judged; I talked with him right after the judges had spent 7 minutes on his car and gave him the Survivor award. He was in his 60s and the look on his face was "I towed 900 miles for that?".

[Bob R.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

I think you should probably talk with Carlton Colclough the 63 - 64 Judging team leader for his opinion but they did make mistakes in the factory an you do have some documentation to back up the AC. I am no expert on engine stamps but I do like the look of the stamp pad it looks original to me.

[Joe R.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

Bill Mock is one of the foremost judges when it comes to engine stamps. If he OK'd it at Bloomington, then it's 99.9999% original from the factory. Hard to fool Bill any day!

JR

[John H.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

When it rolled off the haulaway truck at the dealership, it was "RD" - someone saw that and wrote it down to be transferred to the inventory and dealer-to-customer invoice paperwork (unless they saw the "RQ" and wrote it down as "RD").

[Jim S.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

Thanks guys!! The air is most definitely original and factory. It seems to me an air car was ordered and being toward the end of the production year they ran out od Q blocks and converted. Back then I'm sure nobody even check block stamps or cared about judging. I have all the previous owners phone numbers I will check back after I call them. Maybe I will have a story to tell.......

Thanks
Jim

[Paul D.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

As John H. stated above, the information on DELIVERY paperwork such as bill of sale and predelivery inspection report is recorded off the actual vehicle by the technicians. As prominent as the "Q" appears in the photo, it would seem odd that the tech would read it as a "D". I could easily believe the car left St Louis with the RD engine since it would probably appear identical to the RQ engine on arrival from Flint. Does anyone know of any differences between A.C. and non A.C. engines externally? My (older) spec guide shows carb and distributor numbers same. As to when and why that "Q" came to be, I can only guess that somebody decided to "correct" a mistake. May have been done early in life. As Loren asked above, did Bloomington record such data as part of the process when this car was inspected?

[Edward M.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

I am wondering about the style / font of the letter Q is this case. I have seen a photo of engine stamps that have both a Q with the short straight cross bar and a long curving cross bar. I was unable to identify the year of these engine stamps.

There are not a lot of 1964 engine codes that use the letter Q. I did locate a Chevelle 327, 250 hp engine with code JQ. That Q is the short straight cross bar. I also found a few 409 engines (Tonawanda, not Flint) that alos used the short straight cross bar.

I cannot locate another example of a 64 RQ engine.

This may be a non-issue to the discussion, but I am wondering if the long curving cross bar Q was used in 1964?

[Loren L.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

Ed, I have no idea. But until I see a response from the original poster that shows he has attempted to validate the Survivor award from 22 years ago and the engine stamp, I see no reason to try. As Joe Ray indicated, Mock was the arbiter and by rep, a good one - if his notes show "RD" the game is over.

[Edward M.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

Ed, I have no idea. But until I see a response from the original poster that shows he has attempted to validate the Survivor award from 22 years ago and the engine stamp, I see no reason to try. As Joe Ray indicated, Mock was the arbiter and by rep, a good one - if his notes show "RD" the game is over.

Agreed Loren. I am not so much concerned with this car as I am with what an original unmolested 1964 RQ stamp looks like. The car is beautiful, and this overstamp would not bother me, but I do suspect that it is a post factory overstamp. The dealership paperwork indicating an RD engine suffix is pretty convincing.

Could the car have gotten a survivor award with this overstamp being determined to be not factory?

[Daniel L.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

The original poster states "When you look at the stamp it appears that the D was replaced by a Q." Could it be that the "Q" is actually an original stamp? I have an original 327 block that never had a VIN but the date stamp and suffix code just appear as F0905R. If a block like that- with no final letter on the suffix code- were used as the basis for this car's engine, could the "Q" have been an added letter? Of course this does not square with the documentation of the "D" letter but am just offering up an observation.

[Edward M.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

The original poster states "When you look at the stamp it appears that the D was replaced by a Q." Could it be that the "Q" is actually an original stamp? I have an original 327 block that never had a VIN but the date stamp and suffix code just appear as F0905R. If a block like that- with no final letter on the suffix code- were used as the basis for this car's engine, could the "Q" have been an added letter? Of course this does not square with the documentation of the "D" letter but am just offering up an observation.

The Letter D is clearly underneath the letter Q is this case.

[Jim S.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

The original paperwork judge sheet from Bloomington didn't come with the car. I put out a phone call to the second owner who had the car judged to see if he has any info. I still believe it came from the factory this way, why would anybody change or add the Q when everything else matches on the stamp pad? I'm sure the first owner and dealer never looked at the pad and the second owner who had it judged wouldn't have added it. I find it hard for someone to add it after it was judged. It would be nice to find somebody who worked at the plant back then to maybe confirm that this has happened before. Plus Q stamps were fairly new, air came out in 63-64? It's definitely a mystery....

Thanks
Jim

[Edward J.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

I not sure, but maybe one of the posters here can answer, In 63 Trim tag codes there was the a letter that indicates a A/C car. Does 64 have such a code on trim tag??

[Patrick B.]

Re: Help Identify possible block stamp change at factory on a 1964 w/air

I am wondering about the style / font of the letter Q is this case. I have seen a photo of engine stamps that have both a Q with the short straight cross bar and a long curving cross bar. I was unable to identify the year of these engine stamps.

There are not a lot of 1964 engine codes that use the letter Q. I did locate a Chevelle 327, 250 hp engine with code JQ. That Q is the short straight cross bar. I also found a few 409 engines (Tonawanda, not Flint) that alos used the short straight cross bar.

I cannot locate another example of a 64 RQ engine.

This may be a non-issue to the discussion, but I am wondering if the long curving cross bar Q was used in 1964?

Even if the Flint or St. Louis plant stamped the "Q", it would not necessarily look like a gang stamped "Q" from another Flint engine. Overstamps would have been done with single handstamp from an ordinary machine shop stamp set, while the gang stamps used special pieces of type that fit into a gang holder. The pieces of type are too short to use as a handstamp and were probably made by a different company than the handstamp supplier.