1970 LT1 CTV Restoration Questions

[Harry E.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

Hi Mike

Will grab some additional photos of bellhousing late today, respond then

Thanks for engine build date, how were you able to derive that number?

Attached trim tag reflects body built B16 = Feb 16th, if that is what you are asking

Harry

[Mike F.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

The engine stamp V02I3CTV indicates a Feb 13th build date (V - Flint, 02I3 - Feb 13th). ("I'" was used for "1" at times)

I don't know the answer to this, but could a Friday the 13th built engine be shipped from Flint to St. Louis and installed in a car on Monday the 16th?

[Harry E.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

OK, thank you Leo...appreciate your expert eyes

[Patrick H.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

In addition to the "hidden" V and the assembly/build date timing, note the unusual VIN sequence.
It should start with 70S40XXXX, but on this engine it shows 10S40XXXX.

[Mike F.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

What is the block casting date? It's located on the rear, upper passenger side of the block. Should look like this,

[Joe L.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

One more thing: the broach marks on the stamp pad appear too "prominent" and "fresh" to me. Plus, there is absolutely no evidence of any paint, at all,on the stamp pad.

[Harry E.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

Block ID: 3970010

Casting date: Small dimple followed by A270

All the numbers:
- Tank sticker: Not available and no longer on the tank
- Block casting date: A270 = Jan 27, 1970
- Engine assy date: V0213CTV = Feb 13, 1970
- Date on carb: Numbers are 3972123, LIST 4489, 953 (do not know how to decode actual date on this?)
- Trim tag build date: B16 = February 16, 1970

[Harry E.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

Hi Joe

I agree this stamp has several issues (CTV, 1 instead of 7, V double-stamp), but we must also agree dates are dates, and that engine block was cast dated right when it was supposed to be

One of two guys who physically/thoroughly inspected this stamp was NCRS expert who judged at national level/shows (Lancaster, Joplin, Cyprus Gardens, CT and others). He has seen all physical stamp mistakes made on my block ID and is certain this block is original, sees no evidence of broach marks, and agrees someone trying to forge block/stamp in this car would have chose another block (with block manuf date) nowhere close date-wise to all the other dates which all match on my car.

From casual reading I see many stamp irregularities occurred (no car VIN proceeding engine ID, double-stamps, wrong stamps, etc.). But you just cannot dismiss block cast date and how that action occurred 2.5 weeks before engine was installed then stamped again. And if I were a crook savvy enough to try and forge this block, I would be savvy (intelligent) enough to at least get all the numbers right.

I am still going to pursue both avenues, talk to original owner then have additional (NCRS) inspectors consider all evidence, provide their expert opinions.

All the numbers:
- Tank sticker: Not available and no longer on the tank
- Block casting date: A270 = Jan 27, 1970
- Engine assy date: V0213CTV = Feb 13, 1970
- Date on carb: Numbers are 3972123, LIST 4489, 953 (do not know how to decode actual date on this?)
- Bell-housing: Number is 3899621, Date Marker (can be seen but not read until I place car on lift), Status Marker (Looks like small "x" or "t")
-- Date Marker and Status Marker very difficult to read
- Trim tag build date: B16 = February 16, 1970
- Car is early 1970 as evidenced by chrome-plated knobs to control air-flow from dash-mounted vents
- Car and engine block is early 1970 as evidenced by all numbers provided above

On a positive note, you and others have provided invaluable input re all aspects of my car and I sincerely appreciate you taking the time with your posts and your passion we all share with these classics. Have several numbers/details books inbound, obviously learning loads daily, taking all insights/opinions objectively because I really want to learn, respect the craft, and maintain originality.

Respectfully

Harry

[Patrick H.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

Hi Joe

I agree this stamp has several issues (CTV, 1 instead of 7, V double-stamp), but we must also agree dates are dates, and that engine block was cast dated right when it was supposed to be...


And if I were a crook savvy enough to try and forge this block, I would be savvy (intelligent) enough to at least get all the numbers right.


Respectfully

Harry

Harry,

We've seen plenty of examples over the years where blocks were restamped with bad dates, bad numbers, nonlogical sequences, you name it. Just because it doesn't seem logical doesn't mean someone didn't do it.

Patrick

[Harry E.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

No argument Patrick, good feedback!

We have several ways to objectively approach scenario...

So what do you think re block casting date (A270 = Jan 27, 1970) vs. Engine assy date (V0213CTV = Feb 13, 1970)? This was 17 day lag between engine casting and engine assy stamp date. How does that number compare with other 1970 LT1s built around that time-frame? Would like your opinion on that fact as well. I do not see how that raised surface date on block can be altered, you agree?

BTW, looked for additional VIN info just above oil filter area, did not find any numbers. Read where very early 1970 blocks had VIN stamped in this area but that may have occurred on handful of motors. Looked immediately above, around, and near block just above filter...nothing.

And is there anything else, anything we can look at re block ID (or car info) which would tie this back to original motor/car?

Harry

[Joe L.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

Hi Joe

I agree this stamp has several issues (CTV, 1 instead of 7, V double-stamp), but we must also agree dates are dates, and that engine block was cast dated right when it was supposed to be

One of two guys who physically/thoroughly inspected this stamp was NCRS expert who judged at national level/shows (Lancaster, Joplin, Cyprus Gardens, CT and others). He has seen all physical stamp mistakes made on my block ID and is certain this block is original, sees no evidence of broach marks, and agrees someone trying to forge block/stamp in this car would have chose another block (with block manuf date) nowhere close date-wise to all the other dates which all match on my car.

From casual reading I see many stamp irregularities occurred (no car VIN proceeding engine ID, double-stamps, wrong stamps, etc.). But you just cannot dismiss block cast date and how that action occurred 2.5 weeks before engine was installed then stamped again. And if I were a crook savvy enough to try and forge this block, I would be savvy (intelligent) enough to at least get all the numbers right.

I am still going to pursue both avenues, talk to original owner then have additional (NCRS) inspectors consider all evidence, provide their expert opinions.

All the numbers:
- Tank sticker: Not available and no longer on the tank
- Block casting date: A270 = Jan 27, 1970
- Engine assy date: V0213CTV = Feb 13, 1970
- Date on carb: Numbers are 3972123, LIST 4489, 953 (do not know how to decode actual date on this?)
- Bell-housing: Number is 3899621, Date Marker (can be seen but not read until I place car on lift), Status Marker (Looks like small "x" or "t")
-- Date Marker and Status Marker very difficult to read
- Trim tag build date: B16 = February 16, 1970
- Car is early 1970 as evidenced by chrome-plated knobs to control air-flow from dash-mounted vents
- Car and engine block is early 1970 as evidenced by all numbers provided above

On a positive note, you and others have provided invaluable input re all aspects of my car and I sincerely appreciate you taking the time with your posts and your passion we all share with these classics. Have several numbers/details books inbound, obviously learning loads daily, taking all insights/opinions objectively because I really want to learn, respect the craft, and maintain originality.

Respectfully

Harry

Harry-------


The block could well be original. However, that does not mean the pad stampings are original. All 1970 Corvette small blocks used the same block casting. Maybe someone wanted to make a base engine car into an LT-1.

In addition, the 3970010 block is a VERY common casting used across all Chevrolet lines, car and truck. So, finding a block with a specific date would not be all that difficult. Beyond that, over two weeks between block casting date and engine assembly date was unusual for Flint-manufactured small blocks of the period. It could have happened, but it would be unusual. And, only 3 days between engine assembly date and car build date is also unusual. It is theoretically possible, I suppose, but it's unusual. So, we've got 2 "unusuals" here. When "unusuals" start "piling up", I start to get suspicious.

[Harry E.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

Appreciate the feedback Joe

[Mike F.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

In post #22 you indicate the transmission is stamped "70S40 3873" . Can we see a pic of that as well?

My understanding is that the same gang stamp used to stamp the engine pad was also used to stamp the transmission at the same time, by the same guy. If that's true, then both stamps should have the same "1" anomaly and the same style/font for the other numbers.

[Harry E.]

[Harry E.]

Re: 1970 LT1 Restoration Questions and CTV Motor Trivia

Update and conclusions drawn:
- Real Deal LT-1: After scouring across all part/serial numbers, dates, and what should (should not) be on LT-1 vs base model, this is definitely LT-1. Stan and I covered all the difficult to impossible LT-1 clone areas and everything is A-OK on my car, this is real deal LT-1
- Engine VIN: Talked with Stan at great length, he agrees with some who mention possible re-stamp, trans/engine should have been stamped by same person, with same stamp, on same day, and the logic with all those inconsistencies just does not jive, so I totally agree this is re-stamp
- Why Would Someone Change Engine VIN: Ego stands for best reason as all parts, accessories, set-up are LT-1. And there are just too many reasons this car could not be classified as ZR-1. So ego to impress ones friends, but do not see any re-sale deception as there is just no way this is, or ever would be, ZR-1, too many mistakes re engine VIN re-stamp, etc.
- Original Engine Block: Tough to say as dates line up so will have to table final answer pending further research.
- Original Documents for Car: Requested dealer info last week, no build sheet on tank for sure, and tried finding build sheet between tach/speedo, no joy. Will get at least some repair bills tomorrow which Rick kept over these last 12 years (working on the car).

Sincerely appreciate all the feedback, especially on the engine VIN. Most of you guys will forget more than I will ever learn on these 1970 LT-1s and it is amazing what you have already taught me in just 2 weeks. Looking forward to posting more (will micro my details per your suggestion), and hope to meet some of you at upcoming NCRS events, or perhaps BJ (September in Vegas, I go every year, so please hit me up via PM.)

Thanks again NCRS team, you cats rock!

Harry