Judging Protocol Question

[Jack M.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

DISCLAIMER: I'm absolutely insane for posting to this thread.

That said, I'd like to voice an outsiders opinion... one who has never had a Corvette judged (though I have attended several meets as a spectator). I know my '66 is not a Top Flight vehicle (never will be)... but I still enjoy the car, the hobby and friendships I've developed over the many years.

Some people are questioning the consistency of judges and the thoroughness of the manuals. Letz look at this with a different perspective. Have you, or someone you know, ever gone to a doctor for a second opinion... if so, why? Didn't the first doctor have similar schooling... in fact, years of it? Didn't they share similar books... in fact, many large/comprehensive ones? Didn't they do their internships at many leading medical centers... in fact, being tutored by experts in their field? Then how can it be possible some of these second opinions are different than the initial one? And at times, you actually pray it may be different... don't you?

And aren't these medical professionals getting paid big buck$ to diagnose your problems? Korrect me if I'm wrong, but I believe the NCRS judges are volunteering their time and efforts. Don't they also have to pay their own expenses to attend these meets? If you expect perfection from the volunteers, I believe that is unreasonable. Can there be differences of opinion and interpretations of existing manuals between various judges... simple logic leads me to believe so.

Placing 'everything' in writing doesn't always solve all the world problems either. For example, how do you know for certain if I'm replying in anger right now? You would be interpreting or formulating your own opinion based upon my written words. Can different people have varying opinions and 'read' too much into something? It happens all the time... especially in emails and forums.

Are things improving? In the years I've been in NCRS, I've noticed many intellectual and behavioral changes... both on the positive side. I view the NCRS as a learning experience... one that grows and morphs with itz membership. If you want to see change, get involved and volunteer... complaining and arguing just leads to more complaining and arguing. Chill out... have a beer... take an antidepressant or whatever you need... this is not the end of the world (though I know when it will happen, but I'm sworn to secrecy).

BTW- Frank has an absolutely beautiful '63 that he should be extremely proud of (CONGRATS)... I could care less what Flight he received.

Respectfully,
Jack

[Harry S.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

BTW- Frank has an absolutely beautiful '63 that he should be extremely proud of (CONGRATS)... I could care less what Flight he received.

Respectfully,
Jack

I could not agree more as I got to see the car and meet Frank.

[Michael W.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

If you expect perfection from the volunteers, I believe that is unreasonable. Can there be differences of opinion and interpretations of existing manuals between various judges... simple logic leads me to believe so.

But that's not the discussion at all. There are team leaders and a judging chairman present to ensure consistency. In this case it seems one 'doctor' and two diagnosis for the same condition.

[Jack M.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

But that's not the discussion at all. There are team leaders and a judging chairman present to ensure consistency. In this case it seems one 'doctor' and two diagnosis for the same condition.

I don't dispute that two different determinations were made (too bad that occurred). Are you absolutely certain all entrants/participants consulted the same people? Were the Team Leaders and Judging Chair presented the facts of both vehicles... was it done in the exact same manner? A slightly different discussion or critical omission (no matter how seemingly insignificant) could possibly yield two different conclusions.

And people aren't perfect... unfortunately, mistakes do happen. Just ask the ump that blew the call at first base a few years ago... that cost a pitcher a perfect game. Hopefully, we learn from mistakes... instead of arguing, letz make the process better.

[Joe C.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Intent to deceive:
Section 4, item 14, page 24 of the JRM: "Added or Deleted Items" addresses how a car is to be judged if the owner tries to pass off an added option as originally installed equipment. The operable word here is "detectable".

If the vehicle owner states that the option was not original to the car, as Mister DRANO has presumably done, then the vehicle is judged per the standard matrix.

That is how I interpret the literature. If I'm an oracle, then some clarifications should be added, such as how Trim Tag discrepancies are now handled.

[Frank D.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

I don't dispute that two different determinations were made (too bad that occurred). Are you absolutely certain all entrants/participants consulted the same people? Were the Team Leaders and Judging Chair presented the facts of both vehicles... was it done in the exact same manner? A slightly different discussion or critical omission (no matter how seemingly insignificant) could possibly yield two different conclusions.

And people aren't perfect... unfortunately, mistakes do happen. Just ask the ump that blew the call at first base a few years ago... that cost a pitcher a perfect game. Hopefully, we learn from mistakes... instead of arguing, letz make the process better.

Pretty much my take on it. And no people aren't perfect. This thread has riled some, and, caused some critical thinking by others. It was meant as a fact seeking inquiry....not to erode the pillars of NCRS judging. I've had some very supportive emails from members but others have accused me of being a cheater, whiner and a 'flipper' (of all things).

Frankly, I don't much care how other cars were judged if they are all held to the same standard....if similar aftermarket installs are 12 points, so be it, if 100 points, so be it.

The NCRS judging is supposed to be 'objective' - an 'open book test'; if you will. I will conform to what ever the guidelines are if they are explicit enough to understand. I knew I was in trouble when I polled folks on here (and elsewhere) and heard wild deviations in the numbers applied to aftermarket A/C. If someone had told me the magnitude of the 'hit' that I encountered I wouldn't have bothered with the judging. Not because I'm mad about it or think its unfair...but, on this particular car, why start a race when you're already shot in one kneecap ? Maybe I would have entered my '61 instead. Of course everybody wants a Top Flight, I want a date with Jennifer Lopez too -- prob not gonna happen; I'm a big boy and OK with that.

All told, I spent about $2,000 (and a lot of hours) preparing for judging, finding correct fuel pump, new choke housing for the carburetor, having the original alternator rebuilt, getting NOS vent window regulators (mine were trashed), rebuilding the radio, converting the clock BACK from quartz to mechanical movement, having scratches professionally buffed out of the windshield and on and on. I drew the line at removing the A/C. I'll spend another $300 or so correcting the non-A/C, VERY minor things the judges found. My 63 will be a better car for having gone through the process and it was fun and educational; however I wish I had never brought the issue up because now I'm a 'marked man' if I ever show up on a judging field again.

One of two things will happen, the judges will go 'medieval' on my car and pick it apart because I questioned the status quo, or, they'll give me a Top Flight to shut me up. Either is unfair to the institution. I think I'll end my involvement in this thread now....everything has prob been said that's worth saying...

[Don H.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Frank
you have some basic misunderstandings of NCRS Flight judging which is understandable since you are brand new to the game. Neither you nor your car are "marked", and no one will bore down onto your car any more or less than anyone else's car. Every meet is a new experience, with new judges, and new score sheets with the full 4510 points to start with. You could go to the next meet and only take a 15 point total hit for the added VA. My understanding is there were roughly 30 cars flight judged at Lakeland, and everyone had a story. Yours was just one of those. You have pulled a huge microscope over your experience here on the DB and the CF making it seem unusual or unique. I don't think most owners do that. But, to each his own. You previously said that the meet was enjoyable for you and you learned much about your car. The next one should be just as enjoyable, and if you drive some miles to it you can pick up some driving bonus point to overcome your car's known handicaps. You might even consider getting involved as a judge to better understand the process. The club has much to offer. Take advantage!

[Joe C.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

You should have equipped the car with original C60 equipment in the first place and then had the car judged as an original C60 car.

Nobody would have known.

Of course, then when you "flip" the car, imagine how much it would have been worth.

[David R.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

I guess the results of this discussion were entirely predictable. There are those who were there and saw what transpired, and understand the frustration concerning judging that appeared to have been inconsistently applied. There are those who will always slavishly defend the NCRS judging as "correctly done regardless" of results and/or inconsistencies. There are those who do not understand the actual issues that have been raised, but feel bound to offer their opinions anyway. There are those who are certain that they (and they alone) understand the whole thing, and only their opinion is correct. Nothing new in any of those viewpoints, really . . . including my own.

It has been my experience that most members of the NCRS respect the process and rigors of judging. All they ask is that the guidelines so painstakingly developed. and continually updated and expanded over the years be fairly and consistently applied, at least as far as the human element will allow. There will always be a small margin of variation, especially where each group of judges is different and each car even more so. Those who feel that Frank is "whining" or not appreciative of his 2nd Flight Award, or that he "doesn't understand" how the system works could not be more mistaken. What we have here is an NCRS member who enjoys his cars, and wanted to see how one would actually score. The frustration involved is that a true reflection of how his SWC should have scored still appears to be open to question. All that is desired, and this comes from more than one NCRS member, is that some resolution be arrived at to ensure more consistent judging for the future. That's a good thing for all of us, and a goal to continually strive for. I would like to submit my 1962 for its first NCRS judging with the confidence that whatever team of judges assesses it will evaluate it consistently with every other car judged. I think each and every member has the right to that expectation. I further think that no organization does a better job at objective evaluation of Corvettes than the NCRS. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, or room for a frank discussion of what appears to be a possible discrepancy. A rising tide raises all boats, and anything that improves the system benefits us all. That is the goal here. I have no doubt at all that those in positions of authority that can look into this matter and effect changes, improvements and/or clarifications will do so. They have shown their wisdom thus far by refraining from getting involved in the discussion on a public forum, and I hope they will continue to do so. I think about everything that needs to be said has been said. And on we go.

Just my opinion, of course.

[Patrick B.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

I have never had a Corvette judged, and I have the highest respect for the volunteer NCRS judges I know. I have read this interesting but emotional thread carefully, but I still don't understand what is the correct judging principle for the addition of non-original equipment. Are the alterations and deletions of original parts the scoring issue or is it the difference between original and aftermarket parts? Or is it that the parts didn't come from the factory on this particular car? Are deductions for the "damage" to the originality of the car in terms of deletions and alterations sufficient or are a second round of deductions taken regarding the characteristics of the added equipment?

I would like to add another example for the discussion of judging principles. During my ongoing restoration of a 67 L-71, I added L-89 aluminum heads. It has the born-with block with the factory stamped JE code proving that it is not an L-89 car, so I hope there would be no counterfeiting issues. What is the deduction for the absence of the 391 iron heads? Are there additional deductions for the characteristics of the 392 heads on the engine? Would it make any difference had I used aftermarket aluminum heads or incorrect GM iron heads?

[Mike M.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

heads are worth 50 points(originality only). since they aren't eldbrock etc but are GM castings, and they fit the engine, i'd be inclined to take but 5 points for the presence of l-89 heads on a l-71. mike

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

I wish I had never brought the issue up because now I'm a 'marked man' if I ever show up on a judging field again.

One of two things will happen, the judges will go 'medieval' on my car and pick it apart because I questioned the status quo, or, they'll give me a Top Flight to shut me up. Either is unfair to the institution. I think I'll end my involvement in this thread now....everything has prob been said that's worth saying...

As Don notes in his reply, this is not true. When a car shows up for another event the whole process starts over, and the judges will evaluate the car without regard to what happened last week. If anything, you'll now be prepared to nicely challenge deductions made in excess of what you know is missing or has holes (damage) in it. The entire event is a learning process, and hopefully you've learned a lot as well.

I've seen good judging and bad judging both as a judge and an owner. Not every event goes the same, and each one is an opportunity to learn from both perspectives.

[Chuck G.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Added or Deleted OPTIONS are not covered by the CDCIF. They are governed by the Judging Reference Manual. Section 4 Standard Deduction Guidelines, Purpose & Use. Item 9 of this section covers Added or Deleted Options. This was an added option to a 1963 Corvette that was available from GM in that model year. Although not a GM manufactured option the JRM does not indicate that there is a difference in the who made the option. It is a added option and a total deduction. In looking at the Judging Sheet that was shown, it appears the team leader signed off on judging teams decision.

Just adding fuel to the fire...

If this is so, how would one judge a 53-62 Corvette with Vintage Air? AC was not a factory option in those years.

[Dan A.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

I regret the owner has chosen to withdraw from any further judging of the car.

I regret he feels his car now carries a stigma. That is not the case and a simple misunderstanding that I hope has been cleared up. Each judging is a new day with a clean slate in the form of a blank judging form. Likewise judges are to approach the car without prejudice. Many owners return with changes and adjustments from prior judgings and they do not face any carryover from a previous events deductions.

There is a silver lining to this dark cloud. The owner has shed light on an issue that this thread clearly has shown that there are at least two trains of thought regarding the correct deductions. Hopefully this will be addressed and bring clarity and a better understanding for all of us. That in turn will further refine the "state of the art" of judging and assigning appropriate deductions.

Over the years there have been other owners that have suffered from the state of the art at the time. With that eventually came change and the constant improvement of the judging process. There was a time when only 519 blocks were accepted in 1961s and 935s were not. Similarly in 1965s, only 870 blocks were recognised and 180s were not. If you search back many years through the Restorer you will find the story of a frustrated '61 owner that persisted and made the case that finally included the Tonawnda 3789935s randomly late in the year. We now know from the late Mark Gorney who worked many years at the Saginaw Foundry that there was a practice of shipping Saginaw blocks to Tonawanda and Tonwanda blocks to Flint for machining and final assembly to insure the interchangeability of parts. Not a totally parallel case but you get the idea.

Frank's question is appropriate. He has contributed to the process of constant improvement of "the state of the art".

Again I regret Frank's decision to withdraw his car from any further judging. From all accounts the car is a pleasure to behold and thus a loss to spectators, judges and fellow owners.

[David H.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Just adding fuel to the fire...

If this is so, how would one judge a 53-62 Corvette with Vintage Air? AC was not a factory option in those years.

Standard Deduction Table #13: 100% Originality deduction for items significantly dissimilar. Not being available would make the addition of AC significantly dissimilar to original.