Judging Protocol Question

[Frank D.]

I had been told by others here that items that were added were excluded from judging -- such as aftermarket A/C pieces.

At the latest regional the 63 team leader asked if I was presenting my car as a 'factory' A/C car. I replied NO!; the A/C was clearly aftermarket and NOT a factory A/C car (rare beasts to be sure).

In going through the judging sheets I saw deducts for alternator on wrong side, heater hose routing, etc.. -- stuff I expected to see.
In addition I got some heavy deducts for condensor, evaporator, interior A/C nozzles, drier, compressor, etc..

Am I wrong in my thinking ?

Not complaining -- just want to know what the deal is...

[Mark E.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

I'm not the judging expert, but if deductions are made for dealer installed luggage racks and right-hand mirrors, shouldn't we also expect deductions for other aftermarket stuff?

[Frank D.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

I'm not the judging expert, but if deductions are made for dealer installed luggage racks and right-hand mirrors, shouldn't we also expect deductions for other aftermarket stuff?

May well be true - I'm just trying to find out!

[Stephen C.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Frank: in the NCRS JUDGING REFERENCE MANUAL 6th edition it states the detectable addition or deletion of any regular production vehicle option subsequent to factory assembly is inconsistent with NCRS judging standards and therefore subject to a full deduction on originality and condition. (page 24 section 14) hope this helps.

l

[Gene M.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

NCRS judging states that full deductions are awarded to any options added or removed from said car. Operations could be brutal. I would assume any changes that were the result of said options would be considered deductions too. It is a pleasure to drive one's car with air conditioning. But if added and it was not original deductions are the result. Feel a gift if non original configuration or added aftermarket were not deducted.

[Michael W.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Am I wrong in my thinking ?

No, it sounds like some errors were committed. There is no direct deduction for having an aftermarket accessory installed but deductions are made for the modifications done to the car to make it fit.

Best example- no deduction for having a passenger side mirror, just a tiny deduct for having drilled holes in the body to attach it.

I'd address this with the Judging Chairman, especially since you stated in advance that this was not a factory AC car.

[Mark E.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Frank: in the NCRS JUDGING REFERENCE MANUAL 6th edition it states the detectable addition or deletion of any regular production vehicle option subsequent to factory assembly is inconsistent with NCRS judging standards and therefore subject to a full deduction on originality and condition. (page 24 section 14) hope this helps.l

Does this apply in Frank's case? He didn't add or delete any RPOs.

[Frank D.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Does this apply in Frank's case? He didn't add or delete any RPOs.

Yeah - I'm just looking for some bit of consistency. I've heard deductions for Vintage Air A/C ranging from 12 points to 45 points...I was at the high end of that to be sure...maybe more depending on how I add things up.

And, I have a very clean install of the VA system. Not whining just looking for what I could modify to do better score-wise.

[Edward J.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Frank,I think Mike hit the nail on the head. alternator mounting, wire harness mods, hose routings, missing hose retainers, holes drilled in rad. support ??, firewall ?? belt change to different length, Then onto interior, mounting holes for unit, extra wiring added to operate after market system, Dash mod's if you added cutouts, there could be others depending on just what needed to be done, Is the original heater box still retained inside and out? these items come to mind but there is surely more once you look at the systems install requirements.

[Frank D.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Again, I expected all that - and no, of course the heater box is gone...dash is not cut but nozzles added, etc. The mods aren't what I'm referring to.

On a declared, non-factory A/C car I got deducts for compressor assembly, mounting and labeling, evaporator relay and labeling, valves, dehydrater ass'y (drier I presume) and condensor. Full deductions for originality and condition across the board. About 45 points and that's BEFORE the points lost for moving the alternator, heater hose routing, etc mods to accommodate the A/C install. Haven't tallied those yet. I bet the 'hit' is in the 60-70 point all told.

I know of a '67 Vintage Air A/C car at the meet that had minuscule deducts for his setup and its the same kit and the install looked identical - different judging team though. I've heard others on here cite 12 points deductions and 22 points deductions. I think there is a huge gap in how equitably such additions are treated...

I'll drop it now because I don't want to sound like I'm crying in my soup. Just looking forward to what I can work on for next year but I've yet to see any consistency in how something relatively straightforward like aftermarket A/C is treated vis a vis an 'objective' standard...

Bottom line - I'll live with my Second Flight (happily) but see no point in pursuing a higher award while dragging the 'boat anchor' of aftermarket A/C behind me.

[Michael W.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Does this apply in Frank's case? He didn't add or delete any RPOs.

It does not apply. The rule is for adding/deleting 'GM' RPO components after the fact, not aftermarket stuff.

[Michael W.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

I know of a '67 Vintage Air A/C car at the meet that had minuscule deducts for his setup and its the same kit and the install looked identical - different judging team though.

I'll drop it now because I don't want to sound like I'm crying in my soup.

I'd still ask the Judging Chairman, especially with the discrepancy compared to the '67.

[Gene M.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

Again, I expected all that - and no, of course the heater box is gone...dash is not cut but nozzles added, etc. The mods aren't what I'm referring to.

On a declared, non-factory A/C car I got deducts for compressor assembly, mounting and labeling, evaporator relay and labeling, valves, dehydrater ass'y (drier I presume) and condensor. Full deductions for originality and condition across the board. About 45 points and that's BEFORE the points lost for moving the alternator, heater hose routing, etc mods to accommodate the A/C install. Haven't tallied those yet. I bet the 'hit' is in the 60-70 point all told.

I know of a '67 Vintage Air A/C car at the meet that had minuscule deducts for his setup and its the same kit and the install looked identical - different judging team though. I've heard others on here cite 12 points deductions and 22 points deductions. I think there is a huge gap in how equitably such additions are treated...

I'll drop it now because I don't want to sound like I'm crying in my soup. Just looking forward to what I can work on for next year but I've yet to see any consistency in how something relatively straightforward like aftermarket A/C is treated vis a vis an 'objective' standard...

Bottom line - I'll live with my Second Flight (happily) but see no point in pursuing a higher award while dragging the 'boat anchor' of aftermarket A/C behind me.

Frank,
First I say enjoy the air. But understand it is incorrect as far as flight judging. This add on does not fall under the category of standard deduction. The entire concept of flight judging is to restore the car as close to original condition as possible. It is not concerned with making the car to one's liking. Understand anything done to deviate from as delivered condition will meet with deducts. Not only will the added option be a full deduct, additionally the deviations and/or changes that were modified to accommodate the option will be deductions. For example if the alternator were moved from the left side to the right and all associated braces and harness. Another would be the missing heater box internal and under hood also the passenger air duct and all associated parts.

Also be advised different persons on different judging teams have slightly varying views on the actual pieces deducted for. Missing parts lose condition points too. It is human nature. Without going thru all the allocations of points my guess the deduct would be in excess of 100 points when totaled up from each area.

[Frank D.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

I enjoy the A/C immensely. I understand the purpose of flight judging. I don't go into such things without doing my homework.

I have the JG, scoring sheets, and, the judging reference manual for owners and judges. I've read them all closely several times. And, in fact, the use of the word 'incorrect' is specifically not allowable in judging - so my A/C can't be 'incorrect' or 'wrong'...merely NTP (Not Typical Production).

So, its OK to have judging deviations of from 12 to 100 points depending on judging whimsy under a scoring system that is supposed to be against an "objective" standard ?

Thank you all - I have my answer: There IS no answer.

[Michael W.]

Re: Judging Protocol Question

So, its OK to have judging deviations of from 12 to 100 points depending on judging whimsy under a scoring system that is supposed to be against an "objective" standard ?

Thank you all - I have my answer: There IS no answer.

I disagree. There is an answer. To be blunt, your car was not judged in accordance with the rules that govern addition/deletion of owner or dealer inspired options. Instead it was judged in accordance with the rules that govern addition/deletion of GM RPO equipment. Two very different animals indeed. That explains the large discrepancy in scores between your car and the '67.

The error should have been caught on the judging field.