1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
I have poured over previous threads and have tried a few things but I can't seem to figure out problem with opening issues with headlights. The right headlight opens very nicely but the left headlight will start to open when right one does but slowly and finishes about 6 to 7 seconds after the right one does. When you close them they shut nearly identical to each other. Both motors were completely disassembled and all old lube was removed, armature commutator was cleaned and sanded to remove all old gunk, brushes have plenty of life left, the ground screw in case is proper length so it does not touch windings. The only thing on the motors I did not mess with was the armature adjustment screw and the lower bronze bushing, I left these as they were. I have checked the wiring at the switch by using a jumper wire to see if switch contacts were an issue, but i found no change. I checked junction block terminals on firewall, no change. I pulled the female connectors from both motors and switched them (so right wires went to left motor and vice versa) to see if perhaps one of wires had an issue, but I found no change. Does anyone have any ideas?
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
Is this situation with the engine running or shut off? It will most likely make a difference. -
Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
If this is your biggest problem, just don't ever open the headlights. Relax, St Louis did NOT RESTORE cars, they built them.....for sale.....and in the mid-year era, the orderer was willing to wait.Comment
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
Might this link help? Anything different than the way you assembled?
Judging Chairman Mid-Way USA (Kansas) ChapterComment
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
With motors removed, do both buckets move freely in their pivots?
Some thoughts......Coincidentally I just went through what you did on a pair of motors. Both buckets were sluggish with motors removed and corrected. Dry pivot housings and pivot balls can cause issues with motor speed.
I would remove both motors and set them up on a bench for some tests. A few jumpers and a battery and you can emulate what happens in the car.
PC170022.jpgPC170023.jpgPC170024.jpg
After setting each motor at the "closed" position, I made 2 "flags" out of cardboard and inserted them in the main gear slots and aligned them to my marks previously made. These were used as visual synchronizers.
I jumpered the 2 motors in parallel so I could activate both simultaneously on the bench. I marked each terminal, as shown below, so I could easily connect my positive power lead to open or close the motor pair.
PC170025.jpgPC170026.jpg
I then went through some tests. I found that they both opened together but closed differently and after a few test cycles they were out of sync. In my case, it appears that either the gears, field coils or armatures have some inherent variances and this can cause them to run differently. The HL motor design was flawed. They were never made to be synchronized. Main gears are soft and the drive gear is hardened steel. Each time one motor waits for the other, the stopped motor drive gear is chewing at the main gear teeth.
Large variations or extreme slowness may be a internal fault. A few things to check.....
Check the gears for proper play. Grab the exposed end and there should be a little side to side movement.
Sidenote: I have found that reproduction main gears are not identical to originals. The can be too high/thick at the face where the washers sit and can be over-compressed when the 4 gearbox screws are tightened causing them to bind. I have had to machine new gears in my lathe on their faces to get them to fit better. I haven't bought any lately and not sure if they've fixed the issue. I did tell my vendor about the problem with them back a few years ago.
If yours are very tight, loosen the 4 gearbox cover screws a bit and run some tests to see if it indicates tighter than spec gears. Tighten and loosen the 4 screws to see if you notice a speed difference.
The armature end play adjusting screw should have a plastic tab at the bored end of the screw. Make sure it's there. I set the armature preload identical on both. I like just a touch of play in this adjustment so there is no drag. I grab the rear adjusting wheel and give it a little back and forth tug on each motor to get both with the same end play, I'd guess around 1/32" or less.
PC160006.jpgPC160007.jpg
This one (on top) was missing its plastic tab. This could cause a bind and wear the shaft improperly.
PC160004.jpgPC160005.jpgPC160008.jpg
Ensure the washers on the main gears are oriented properly. The bottom end should have a flat washer and also a special beveled washer with its curved end away from the gear as shown below. The top(drive end) of the gear should have a plastic washer(with 2 notches).
PC140006.jpgPC140007.jpgPC140008.jpgPC140019.jpgPC140020.jpgPC140022.jpg
The armature and field can also be problematic. I have seen different armatures yield different speed results. I believe they were not built to a tight spec and can vary motor speed. On occasion I have swapped armatures between motors and have seen them sync differently, sometimes opposite from each other when first tested. Armatures can be tested using a "growler", but basically only for catastophic type faults. Field coils typically fault either open or shorted, and their resistance values can vary quite a bit too, but very low ohms so it's difficult to trace accuracy.
PC140009.jpgPC140010.jpgPC140011.jpgPC140012.jpg
The rear bronze bushing may be dry and need lubrication. As long as the armature can be removed you can check, clean and lightly oil. If the armature struggles to be removed, clean the shaft end where the finger-wheel was and sand any burrs if needed. If still too tight, the shaft may be seized to the bushing and would require a detailed repair. The one below was seized and a prior scientist cut the motor endplate away and did nothing. The bushing on this one was loose in it's retainer and spinning loosely. Repairable, but tedious.
PC140030.jpg
See these posts for reference.
https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...400#post762400
https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...463#post762463
https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...518#post762518
RichLast edited by Richard M.; December 20, 2015, 06:53 AM.Comment
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
Thanks for the input. My buckets were removed and cleaned and they pivot freely. My concern is trying to pass a pv and they won't pass as they are. I will do some more investigations with your thoughts.Comment
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
King,
The large pot metal gear shown in Richard's pics is probably the offending character. As the motor is used and slams open and closed the pot metal pulls in one direction and after a time makes it difficult in the other direction as the gear's tongue is worn down and the groove is filled. You will have to replace the gears in each motor before they have a chance to be in time.
The set screw and nut on the end of the motor is to keep the armature in correct alignment. It should not be used to slow one motor to time them together. Slowing one down will cause the motor to burn out or trip the thermal switch built into motor.
It's standard for all rebuilders to replace the pot metal gear when rebuilt.
JRComment
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
Understand that when one headlight motor stops and the other continues to rotate the stopped motor is destroying the aluminum gear. There is no electrical power cut out on open and close positions. Once the headlight motors are rebuilt and back in regular use (if you drive the car) the wear process starts all over again. I was thinking that ball bearings and and a driven gear made out of delrin or steel would last indefinitely. I did replace the bucket "balls bushings" with delrin. As oillite and aluminum do not get along. Some day when I have nothing else to do I'll tackle a pair of motors and modify the pieces to achieve my idea. Even better would be a way to cut power at each open and closed position till power is reversed. But electrical is out of my realm of ability. My 65 is starting to show sign of "chewed up aluminum gear" again. But I have got 30 years of use on the rebuild. When I did them, replacement gears were not available. I repaired the gear teeth. I have ball bearing on the back but not the front. So both ball bearings and turning down and press of new gear teeth will be my goal this time around. Who knows my grandsons may never have to fix them again.......Comment
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
If the PV judges are declaring two HL motors 6 seconds apart from full open, they have again gone off the deep end in their search/creation of the "Perfect" car. Those of us who were alive in the '60s and still thinking in the '15s know that "as delivered at the dealer" equaled "They both opened, didn't they?".Comment
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
Agree with you. But yes they can be made to function together. Did they function that way after day one ..... probably not. But I'm sure you will find the PV requirements seem to follow design intent rather than actual function. There are a whole list of functions that are required to perform better than what the General delivered in the day or functioned like after a couple weeks of use. Just recent was a talk on the vent window cranks. If a brand new 60's Corvette on day one was to do a PV what are the chances of passing?Comment
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
It was my understanding the pv was a second apart was allowable. Is this not the case?Comment
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
Chances of passing a PV as currently conducted - NONE. But that standard is NOT "as delivered at the dealer".
Ron Wakefield, a R&T staffer, reported Road & Track's Feb '67 issue on the 36,000 miles in his '64:
"The car was delivered to me with no more than a wash job, apparently. Problems: a broken spark
plug; the side windows wouldn't roll up with the doors shut; splotchy paint on top cover panel; the top
didn't fit properly; the passenger's seat rattled furiously; leaks around the windshield; and the steering
had a massive squeak in it.".
"I've come to the conclusion that the condition of my car was typical and the dealer service was typical;
in my experience it seems most Chevrolet dealers look upon the Corvette as some kind of Funny Furrin car.".Comment
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
These HL bucket drive units were designed to fail. As Gene says, when the first one hits its stop, it continues pushing until you let off the switch. They could easily have incorporated a simple clutch like on the 65-66 power antennas, to take the load off the motors and gears. I guess that would have made too much sense! I am careful to release the switch as soon as both buckets are open or closed, but six seconds is a long time. That fast one doesn't have long to live.Comment
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Re: 1967 headlights syncronized in closing but open 6 seconds apart
I don't really know anything about C2 headlights, but following this thread it seems to me that once a light has fully traveled in either direction and tries to run locked rotor, then the current will rise rapidly and should trip the internal circuit breaker, cutting off all current flow. This is perhaps how GM intended it to work, so breaker interrupt would be the fail safe mode. I can't believe that any good company, certainly not GM, would design something that would try to self destruct every time it was activated. My 2 cents.
Rich, have you (or anyone) bench tested these motor assemblies to see what the current goes to when locked, and how long it takes before breaker interrupt? And how long the breaker stays open before resetting?
-Dan-Comment
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