Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

[Steve P.]

Working on a 71 BB, M21 coupe and it is a very correct, untouched, numbers matching car. The question being that the LS5 is in need of some freshening, and I'm needing some input as to whether the engine should receive factory paint or be left alone after the machine work is done? I heard both arguments and wondered how either may affect judging in the survivor class? Any ideas?

[Bill L.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

Steve:

Just my opinion but unless you are going the Bowtie route (the machine work and R&R will disqualify you in the mechanical dimension any way) ---- I would definitely repaint the motor in the correct factory colors. I would also take the time to freshen up the engine bay while you are at it. This is all some pretty straight forward work and with the engine out it is really quite easy.

Both the engine re-paint and the engine bay refreshening will knock you out of the mechanical dimension in the Bowtie program. But again, if you are pulling the engine to do a bunch of work it will most likely get caught even if you leave it as it is.

Again: just my opinion.

Regards
Bill

[Patrick H.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

What type of freshening is needed, and how was it determined?

[Steve P.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

Thanks for the quick replies guys, the engine smokes quite a bit on startup, using oil, and leaks everywhere... Runs strong and although compression is fine, but with a rebuild I would know it's right. May just need guides and seals but may also be oil rings, but just as soon do it all at once, the usual, pistons, rings, cam, crank, head work. Stock rebuild. Just unsure how reprinting the motor will affect the survivor aspect of the car for future judging?

[Steve P.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

Oops, re painting !!!

[Michael W.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

Just unsure how reprinting the motor will affect the survivor aspect of the car for future judging?

'Survivor' is done by the Bloomington guys; the NCRS version is 'Bowtie'. I think in either case removal of the engine and disassembly pretty much kills any chances of success, repainted or not.

If efforts were made to disguise evidence of a rebuild, that's cheating and defeats the purpose of the award. It can only be original once.

[Joe L.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

Thanks for the quick replies guys, the engine smokes quite a bit on startup, using oil, and leaks everywhere... Runs strong and although compression is fine, but with a rebuild I would know it's right. May just need guides and seals but may also be oil rings, but just as soon do it all at once, the usual, pistons, rings, cam, crank, head work. Stock rebuild. Just unsure how reprinting the motor will affect the survivor aspect of the car for future judging?

Steve------

The leaks can probably be cured by replacing oil pan gaskets, valve cover gaskets, and rear main seal. All of this is not very difficult to do. You may also have to replace timing cover gasket and front oil seal. That's a bit more involved. If you have to do this, replace the timing set at the same time. If yours is original, it will be nylon tooth cam sprocket and that's almost certainly in a bad condition by now.

You can also replace your valve seals without too much of a problem. That, by itself, may cure most of your oil burning problem. The integral valve cap/seal used for your application is no longer available from GM and was never available in the aftermarket. While the seals were never available separately from GM, you can get them in the aftermarket. Fel-Pro part number is SS 72513.

This may be all you need to do to freshen the engine and cure the problems you described. How would doing this affect Bowtie status? I have no idea.

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[Steve P.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

I kind of thought that would be the case. Definitely wouldn't try to be hiding anything but you're right, it's only original once!!! But the motor needs some work so it's gotta be done...so might as well clean it all up and put the hopes of Bow tie / survivor thoughts out of my mind and work in a different direction!! Thanks for everyone's input!!! Cheers!!!

[Alan S.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

Hi Steve,
Welcome!!! Brand new member!!!!
You may want to take a few minutes to read the information about the NCRS Bowtie Award to see the kinds of cars that are generally candidates for that award.
You may find that your car still might be a candidate for 'stars' in judging sections other than the mechanical section or perhaps it's not a candidate at all. Even if that's so, I think you still might want to continue to be VERY thoughtful about whatever work you do to the car, or have done to it, in order to retain whatever 'originality' it still has. VERY few cars are deemed to be Bowtie Candidates and not being a candidate doesn't diminish what you car is.
Often a car that hasn't been restored but has been maintained well, and with service parts, will do well in Flight Judging. You might want to read about Flight Judging Awards too to see if that's something you may want to pursue with your car.
Again, Welcome and I'm glad you're here!
Regards,
Alan

[Jim T.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

How many miles are on your LS5? Does the blowing smoke at start up continue each time it is started? Does it smoke while being driven normally on the streets/highways? The mentioned new oil seals to stop the smoking at start up could save you a lot of money that is not needed to be spent for the total rebuild and would contribute to more time you could spend driving your LS5.

[Steve P.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

Thanks Alan, yup a brand new member! Although I've been involved in the hobby for many years and owned several corvettes, I decided to join because of this car I purchased a couple years ago as I believe it to be special and don't want to make a mistake with what I do to it! It's a very nice, well cared for driver, I'm 3rd owner, 1st owned it for 14 years, 2nd for 29. I've gone thoroughly thru the car in the time I've owned it and the only non original that I can find on the whole car are the windshield and the alternator, plug wires, distributed cap, front brake calipers and tires. Plus the TCS system has been pulled off. The car was repainted in 1981 but still shows very well for 35 year old single stage paint, but it is not the original either. But every other or the dozens of date codes I've checked is original, and correct! Down to the smallest things . But as previously mentioned the motor is in need of some work as it smokes and may need more than guides and seals? I didn't realize that replacing engine internals in a rebuild would affect the bowtie/ survivor status, but thanks to previous replies I do now. I do know that being a 71, LS5, M21, 3.70 gears and almost untouched, with everything working it's quite a desirable car. With value. I am quite confused about what direction to go with it, and don't want to screw it up! So that's why the dumb questions about the motor and why I'm asking guys with way more knowledge of these things than me! Wish someone who's been thru this process before could just come and see the car and tell me what to do! Thanks again for everyone's help so far, I appreciate it! Steve

[Steve P.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

The motor has 114000 miles on it, smokes bad on startup, embarrassing! Gets a small puff on shifting I've been told, but other than that the motor pulls fine. My mechanic says either guides/seals but could be oil rings? I agree, and decided that if the motor was to come out and be redone it would give me the chance to just clean up the engine compartment a bit. But not change anything of course! But now I know that freshening the motor may hurt the car? But if it needs it? What to do? Thanks for your input! Steve

[Tom B.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

It isn't that replacing internals effects it's Bowtie status, it's that it can't be done without it being easy to tell that the engine has been apart. Remember, the engine was painted after it was assembled. Pull the head bolts out and you break the paint edges. No way around it. Plus the portions of the various gaskets that can be seen will also appear new. There are many other areas that will show that they have been disassembled too.

It sounds like you have a great original car and It would be kept that way in my opinion. With that in mind I wouldn't paint it if doesn't need to be tanked. However, I have had cars that were oil covered all over underneath including the power steering hoses and cylinders. My wife's '81 was a prime example. I thought for sure I was gong to have to replace a lot of seals and hoses. I had resealed the valve covers 3 times with RTV as original and it failed again in a year. Used Chevy cork gaskets once and they failed. So I put on Super Seal silicone gaskets with the stainless core from Speedway motors. I washed the engine compartment, underside of the chassis and steering and it's been totally dry for 2 years. Leaking valve covers will get oil everywhere, even in places that you would swear could not be valve cover related.

You said the compression was good. Unless it has a ton of miles I wouldn't suspect the valve guides. Pull the valve covers; do the valve seals; put on Super seal gaskets and wash it thoroughly top to bottom. Then drive and enjoy for awhile and watch for fresh leaks or smoke. If there isn't any you have saved a ton of money and time and preserved most of the originality of the engine. Smoke on start up, puff of smoke on shifting says valve seals to me.

Tom

[Michael W.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

replacing engine internals in a rebuild would affect the bowtie/ survivor status,

Again, 'survivor' is not part of NCRS at all. The term belongs to the Bloomington organization, a separate group.

It's not so much replacing the engine internals that affects the chances of getting a star towards a Bowtie, it's the fact that the engine would display outward signs of having been disturbed and disassembled. Whether the engine was reassembled with replacement components or the originals is irrelevant.

The true value of Bowtie is preserving examples of undisturbed cars for the education of others. This also means that the car cannot be restored or extensively repaired while maintaining the validity of the award.

From what you've already said about the car, sufficient work and restoration has been done to disqualify it in at least the exterior and mechanical sections. I'd do the required repairs and shift focus towards restoration and Flight judging.

[Steve P.]

Re: Survivor engine rebuild, paint or not to paint?

Thanks for the input Tom! I'm starting to think that this is the way to go. As I really want to keep as much of the originality of this car as can be kept. Try seals, clean what can be cleaned without changing anything and hope for the best! As I think Michael said in an earlier post....they are only original once!!! Thanks Steve