Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

[Richard M.]

A good friend and fellow member had a recent bad experience with his wife's car. This could have been disastrous.

A 25k mile lower ball joint made in China failed. She was in a parking lot turning down a aisle to park when it broke. Tore the tire to bits under the skirt also. Previously she was on a high speed road.

Here are photos. Opinions of the failure? I have my suspicions. Poor fabrication materials and/or process. I see contamination at and inside the breakpoint. This joint was doomed from day one. It almost appears spin welded like our old intake/exhaust valves.

Be very cautiuos with Corvette reproduction joints and inquire to where they are fabricated.


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[Gary R.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

Richard,
As you are well aware there is a lot of junk out there today coming into the country. Finding good USA made parts these days is really getting harder in every aspect of life. Glad no one was hurt.

[Duke W.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

You should send those photos to NHTSA. Tell them everything you know - brand, part number, where you bought it... make model of car it was installed on and how long. Don't mention "China". Let them figure it out.

There could be a lot of other bad ones out there. Owner reports are what start NHTSA investigations and recalls. A broken ball joint can lead to a crash and serious injury or loss of life. Reporting this failure could save lives.

Don't throw away the broken pieces. They will be needed for a metallurgical evaluation.

Go to the NHTSA Web site and make the report.

Duke

[Mark E.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

I don't like the unfair cost advantage in China because of their lack of environmental, safety and labor standards. But with that said, be careful with general statements about their quality. There are high-quality parts sourced from China, just like there are poor quality parts made in the US.

It's more about the capabilities of the specific supplier/factory, and the specs they're given. Even if the supplier has the capability, at times the distributor or retailer specifies lower quality standards to their Chinese supplier in an attempt to be more competitive. That's what happened in the Lumbar Liquidator scandal.

Anybody know the % of Chinese sourced parts in the new Corvette? My sense is it's significant, a nod from GM about China's ability to supply quality parts.

[Mark E.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

You should send those photos to NHTSA. Tell them everything you know - brand, part number, where you bought it... make model of car it was installed on and how long. Don't mention "China". Let them figure it out.

There could be a lot of other bad ones out there. Owner reports are what start NHTSA investigations and recalls. A broken ball joint can lead to a crash and serious injury or loss of life. Reporting this failure could save lives.

Don't throw away the broken pieces. They will be needed for a metallurgical evaluation.

Go to the NHTSA Web site and make the report.

Duke

It's probably a good idea to document it, but don't expect action unless someone was injured. In the '90s I reported the poor design of Jaguar's Italian sourced Marelli ignition as the source of a car fire. Nothing was done even though many similar failures with fires were reported.

An attorney advised that even though the case for culpability was strong, it wasn't worth pursuing without an injury...

[Richard M.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

You should send those photos to NHTSA. Tell them everything you know - brand, part number, where you bought it... make model of car it was installed on and how long. Don't mention "China". Let them figure it out.

There could be a lot of other bad ones out there. Owner reports are what start NHTSA investigations and recalls. A broken ball joint can lead to a crash and serious injury or loss of life. Reporting this failure could save lives.

Don't throw away the broken pieces. They will be needed for a metallurgical evaluation.

Go to the NHTSA Web site and make the report.

Duke

Duke, My friend is gathering information. I agree he should put a complaint into NHTSA and will suggest that to him.

Rich

It's probably a good idea to document it, but don't expect action unless someone was injured. In the '90s I reported the poor design of Jaguar's Italian sourced Marelli ignition as the source of a car fire. Nothing was done even though many similar failures with fires were reported.

An attorney advised that even though the case for culpability was strong, it wasn't worth pursuing without an injury...

True. I have been on that site many times and see complaints that never get resolved. But I feel this one should go there for the sake of the safety of others. Something bad is going to happen.

I'm very familiar with the Jaguar Marelli ignition problem on the V12's. Two story V12 distributor with a two stage rotor and 2 external coils, one of each per bank. Ported Fuel Injection. Loose one coil or half of the distributor, and one 6-cylinder bank stops firing, however the fuel continues to pour into the cylinders from the injectors as the ECM doesn't tell it to stop fueling that bank. The Downpipe to the catalytic converter is shaped like a P-Trap under your kitchen sink. Fuel puddles in the exhaust,......You know the rest of the story.

My wife owns a XJS convertible and knows to shut it down if there's ever a power loss. Her V12 E-Type did that a long time ago due to a plugged fuel filter, but not a issue with carburetors. Just a slow ride home running on 6 of 12.

Rich

[Mark E.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

I'm very familiar with the jaguar Marelli ignition problem on the V12's. Two story V12 distributor with a two stage rotor and 2 external coils, one of each per bank. Ported Fuel Injection. Loose one coil or half of the distributor, and one 6-cylinder bank stops firing, however the fuel continues to pour into the cylinders from the injectors as the ECM doesn't tell it to stop fueling that bank. The Downpipe to the catalytic converter is shaped like a P-Trap under your kitchen sink. Fuel puddles in the exhaust,......You know the rest of the story.Rich

Exactly what happened! The Jag didn't actually catch fire. Rather, the cats and exhaust pipes turned beet red, and literally cooked the interior.

I was aware of this flaw beforehand, and watched out for it. But the left bank went out while creeping in heavy traffic so I didn't notice the power loss. Meanwhile, the V12 idled just fine on its other six cylinders until it was too late. My first warning was puffs of smoke from the cowl vents.

I had a dry-chem extinguisher, but there were no flames so it wasn't effective. What I needed but didn't have on the freeway was water to cool the exhaust. I just watched the interior melt until the fire department showed up; they proceeded to rip it up and water it down. It was painful to watch because it was a beautiful car.

[Richard M.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

Exactly what happened! The Jag didn't actually catch fire. Rather, the cats and exhaust pipes turned beet red, and literally cooked the interior.

I was aware of this flaw beforehand, and watched out for it. But the left bank went out while creeping in heavy traffic so I didn't notice the power loss. Meanwhile, the V12 idled just fine on its other six cylinders until it was too late. My first warning was puffs of smoke from the cowl vents.

I had a dry-chem extinguisher, but there were no flames so it wasn't effective. What I needed but didn't have on the freeway was water to cool the exhaust. I just watched the interior melt until the fire department showed up; they proceeded to rip it up and water it down. It was painful to watch because it was a beautiful car.

Mark, Sorry to hear that actually happened to your car. Definitely a poor design for a beautiful model that has plagued these cars for a long time.

[Mark E.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

So who can say is worse- Parts made in China, or designed in Italy?

[Richard M.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

So who can say is worse- Parts made in China, or designed in Italy?

Well, definitely parts made in China.

But ....Technically, the Marelli ignition design was fine. It was Jaguars implementation of that design that is the true fault. All they needed to do was add a circuit to the ECM to shut down the injectors on the electrically failed bank and force a code and put the engine in "Limp Mode", much like designs today.

I actually thought of designing a circuit that would shut down the car if one bank lost ignition. Pretty simple digital circuit and a relay in the ignition path. But how many V12 XJS's with the Marelli ignitions were left? Small hit rate, no market, so I dropped the idea. Also the safety effect of shutting a car down, like on a highway in traffic is not the ideal way to solve the problem. Much like adding a fuse to the 1956 to 1967 Corvette Ignition circuit. A great idea to save the car from a fire if/when the IGN wire shorts to ground(like on the distributor radio shield), but again, if that happens at the wrong time it could be bad. Of course really bad if it catches fire from the grounded IGN wire at 70 MPH on a highway with no fuse when the engine harness burns up and ultimately opens and creates a loss of ignition. Then the car dies........and burns too. I'd rather have the blown fuse than a blown-up Corvette, at any speed.

Speaking of limp-Mode.....My '07 Corvette had a IMS problem a year after I got it. IMS is Internal Mode Switch, a simple switch in the automatic transmission that senses what the console shift lever is doing and is a feedback circuit somewhere in the ECM. If they don't match, a Fault code is sent to the ECM and it puts the engine in limp mode, reduced power to get it to safety. I crawled the car back home, ran a scan, and there it was. But intermittent. Next day I drove it and it acted fine, so I took it to the dealer. They tested it and said the failure isn't there and could not replace a good part under warranty, even though the fault was saved. I suggested that they just change the IMS switch. They refused, unless I wanted to pay for the service visit. I left. A week later, it "Limped" again. Guess what they changed then? Right.....Car has been fine ever since.

Again, Sorry. It's terrible what happened to your Jaguar.

Rich
ps Sorry this got off topic but it's all about the same thing. Bad parts or bad designs. Both are not pleasant, but those bad suspension parts are very dangerous.

[Duke W.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

Over six million cars have been recalled in about the last year, some for issues that are somewhat minor and are unlikely to result in accident or injury/death. I think NHTSA is a lot more serious about complaints now than in the past, especially if they have the potential to cause serious injury or death, and they have more resources to conduct investigations.

Duke

[Jim D.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

Over six million cars have been recalled in about the last year, some for issues that are somewhat minor and are unlikely to result in accident or injury/death. I think NHTSA is a lot more serious about complaints now than in the past, especially if they have the potential to cause serious injury or death, and they have more resources to conduct investigations.

Duke

Unfortunately it takes many years of documentation before a recall will be issued. 124 people died because GM denied there was an ignition switch problem for several years. GM is still in denial about the C6 gas leaks even though 100's of reports have been filed with the NHTSA as well as a lawsuit filed because a car caught fire in the garage and the house burned to the ground. If you have a lot of spare time, the Corvette Forum has a 15 page thread on this issue in the C6 section.

[Richard M.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

I don't like the unfair cost advantage in China because of their lack of environmental, safety and labor standards. But with that said, be careful with general statements about their quality. There are high-quality parts sourced from China, just like there are poor quality parts made in the US.

It's more about the capabilities of the specific supplier/factory, and the specs they're given. Even if the supplier has the capability, at times the distributor or retailer specifies lower quality standards to their Chinese supplier in an attempt to be more competitive. That's what happened in the Lumbar Liquidator scandal.

Anybody know the % of Chinese sourced parts in the new Corvette? My sense is it's significant, a nod from GM about China's ability to supply quality parts.

Mark, I agree with your discussion. My 2007 Corvette has many parts sourced from China, however some are high quality, and in my experienced opinion, some are not.

General statements sometimes occur because of the great percentage of poor quality products coming in from "Offshore" suppliers, whether from China, Taiwan, Korea, Singapore, Italy, or other manufacturing countries. China however, appears to be at the forefront of generally discussed problematic manufacturing quality, whether it is automotive, consumer appliances, or simple manufactured items. Some of these items are very low cost, and as we all know, price is a major factor for the general population mindset.

For example, I am wondering how many of these 1963 to 1967 Corvette ball joints shown below have been sold in this country and how many are going down the road today with them installed. The price is $40.16 for the set of 4. As of this writing 11 have been sold and more than 10 are available.

Rich

s-l1600.jpg

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Set-4-Ball-Joints-Upper-and-Lower-Suspension-12-month-warranty-/321295555912?fits=Year%3A1967%7CModel%3ACorvette&hash=item4aceb51d48:g:WtoAAOSw9NxTrdP4&vxp=mtr

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[Joe L.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

Mark, I agree with your discussion. My 2007 Corvette has many parts sourced from China, however some are high quality, and in my experienced opinion, some are not.

General statements sometimes occur because of the great percentage of poor quality products coming in from "Offshore" suppliers, whether from China, Taiwan, Korea, Singapore, Italy, or other manufacturing countries. China however, appears to be at the forefront of generally discussed problematic manufacturing quality, whether it is automotive, consumer appliances, or simple manufactured items. Some of these items are very low cost, and as we all know, price is a major factor for the general population mindset.

For example, I am wondering how many of these 1963 to 1967 Corvette ball joints shown below have been sold in this country and how many are going down the road today with them installed. The price is $40.16 for the set of 4. As of this writing 11 have been sold and more than 10 are available.

Rich

[ATTACH=CONFIG]67391[/ATTACH]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Set-4-Ball-Joints-Upper-and-Lower-Suspension-12-month-warranty-/321295555912?fits=Year%3A1967%7CModel%3ACorvette&hash=item4aceb51d48:g:WtoAAOSw9NxTrdP4&vxp=mtr

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Rich-------


I would not describe these as "reproduction" ball joints. These are just aftermarket replacement type ball joints at an "economy-level" price point.

I wouldn't touch a set of these with a ten foot pole. Unfortunately, there are folks around that just can't afford anything more. As a wise old friend of mine once aptly observed...."it's expensive to be poor".

[Joe L.]

Re: Off Topic But Corvette Related - China Ball Joints - Beware

A good friend and fellow member had a recent bad experience with his wife's car. This could have been disastrous.

A 25k mile lower ball joint made in China failed. She was in a parking lot turning down a aisle to park when it broke. Tore the tire to bits under the skirt also. Previously she was on a high speed road.

Here are photos. Opinions of the failure? I have my suspicions. Poor fabrication materials and/or process. I see contamination at and inside the breakpoint. This joint was doomed from day one. It almost appears spin welded like our old intake/exhaust valves.

Be very cautiuos with Corvette reproduction joints and inquire to where they are fabricated.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]66396[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]66397[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]66398[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]66399[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]66400[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]66401[/ATTACH]

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Rich------


Was this an OEM ball joint or was this an aftermarket replacement? If the latter, it's probably of the same ilk as the set you pictured above.

I'd be surprised if this was an OEM ball joint. Some OEM ball joints are very likely made in China but not made like this ball joint.