Judging Sheet Legibility

**Reba W.** · August 18, 2015, 06:48 PM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

Back when I began judging, we were told to always PRINT our names, not sign them in cursive. When I was judging chair, I got several calls after a meet asking who had judged a car. The owner wanted to talk to him/her but could not read the name. Maybe printing legibly is something we should go back to.

**Page C.** · August 18, 2015, 08:49 PM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

Hi Brian,
Reba is correct in the printing of the judges names on the judging sheets. In fact it states this in the Judging Reference Manual.
The sheet you posted should have been reviewed with you by the judges. It's a good time for the car owner to question or make sure they understand the deductions.
The # 17 heater-A/C looks like 1 point was deduct in the originality column for F (finish) paint. Heater fiberglass box is not painted.
looks like 1 point was deducted in the condition column for C (cond) cracks
The #18 Wiper& Washer Sys. looks like 1 point in the originality column for Not Typical Finish-Paint. Wiper pumps are not painted but Plated.
looks like 1 point in the originality column for Not Typical Finish-Paint. Washer pumps are not painted but Plated.
Best guess on the last part of that line has to do with the wiper hose should be in one of clips "T" straps.
These are my best guesses.

**Russ S.** · August 18, 2015, 09:14 PM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

Same issue here Brian. It is also amazing how many times high level judges don't know what they are doing or looking at.

**Brian D.** · August 18, 2015, 09:49 PM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

Reviewing the sheets with the judges works well, but (for me at least) only on the very short term. After reviewing four sections and 15 pages over the course of a day, one can forget some of the covered topics. After that, the owner doesn't see the sheets again for a few days, sometimes longer in the aftermath of a larger meet. I might be aware of an issue while they're reviewing, but it's a safe bet that I (and many others) won't recall the finer points by the time the sheets arrive.

Another reason for preferring legible judges' names is comparing the results of multiple judging. Last week, I encountered some issues that my 2014 Mechanical judge either missed, or didn't recognize.

**Bill L.** · August 18, 2015, 10:26 PM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

HI Brian!!!

Don't get me wrong here, clearly, you make a good point ----

HOWEVER!!! ---you were present when the car was judged and you did sign off on the sheets when the judges did the review --- correct????

SO --- given that fact -- maybe you have at least some culpability with respect to asking the judges to explain the "gibberish" on the judging sheet?

Some of the abbreviations are pretty standard in the judging process (too many to mention here)-- those abbreviations and anything else is fair game for YOU to ask what the annotation really means ---

Again, you have a good point regarding the readability and usefulness of the sheets but you did have a chance to ask and you did sign off on the sheet --- correct me if I am wrong on this ---

Not intending to push back on your good point and NOT taking sides as far as judges vs. owners -- just offering an alternative view ---

By the way --- I have challenged many (senior--2-3-400 level) judges decisions over the years and have NEVER EVER been refused a reasonable explanation for a deduction --- some point deductions were even rescinded when I pushed back with "facts" --- I mean I'm just sayin here ----

P.S. You do get to meet each judge prior to the judging process --- maybe write down the names and contact info??? I have done this and these good folks were all VERY glad to talk to me AFTER the event was over --- hours even days, weeks and months later --- made some pretty good friends this way as well !!!! (Learned a ton too!!!)

Regards
Bill

**Russ S.** · August 18, 2015, 11:30 PM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

These are some good points Bill, but also remember you the owner has to do all this while, and knowing that, the judges are being pressed to rush off to the next car in order to get them all judged in record time which seems to be getting shorter and shorter.

Originally posted by Bill Lucia (8620)

HI Brian!!!

Don't get me wrong here, clearly, you make a good point ----

HOWEVER!!! ---you were present when the car was judged and you did sign off on the sheets when the judges did the review --- correct????

SO --- given that fact -- maybe you have at least some culpability with respect to asking the judges to explain the "gibberish" on the judging sheet?

Some of the abbreviations are pretty standard in the judging process (too many to mention here)-- those abbreviations and anything else is fair game for YOU to ask what the annotation really means ---

Again, you have a good point regarding the readability and usefulness of the sheets but you did have a chance to ask and you did sign off on the sheet --- correct me if I am wrong on this ---

Not intending to push back on your good point and NOT taking sides as far as judges vs. owners -- just offering an alternative view ---

By the way --- I have challenged many (senior--2-3-400 level) judges decisions over the years and have NEVER EVER been refused a reasonable explanation for a deduction --- some point deductions were even rescinded when I pushed back with "facts" --- I mean I'm just sayin here ----

P.S. You do get to meet each judge prior to the judging process --- maybe write down the names and contact info??? I have done this and these good folks were all VERY glad to talk to me AFTER the event was over --- hours even days, weeks and months later --- made some pretty good friends this way as well !!!! (Learned a ton too!!!)

Regards
Bill

**Ed S.** · August 19, 2015, 08:04 AM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

Just thinking - perhaps its time for the judging process to enter the 21st century. Instead of paper and a stubby pencil have judging sheets converted to an app or a form that judges complete on an NCRS or Chapter provided iPad and sign digitally. The app would also tally points (or deductions). This approach would result in judging data that is a) accurate, b) legible c) instantly available to all concerned That way the judging results would be legible. The electronic data files would also serve as a source of aggregate analysis at a later date, i.e, the most frequent deficiency in a particular category for a given model or year Corvette, identification of "trends", recurring issues etc. etc. A lot could be done with electronic data files that is just too time consuming and expensive to do with hard copy documents.

**Bill L.** · August 19, 2015, 09:03 AM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

Ed:

This is spot on --- several people have been advocating that for many years ---the potential flexibility of such an approach is almost unlimited --

Great point ---

Regards
Bill

**Terry M.** · August 19, 2015, 09:10 AM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

Originally posted by Ed Szeliga (60294)

Just thinking - perhaps its time for the judging process to enter the 21st century. Instead of paper and a stubby pencil have judging sheets converted to an app or a form that judges complete on an NCRS or Chapter provided iPad and sign digitally. The app would also tally points (or deductions). This approach would result in judging data that is a) accurate, b) legible c) instantly available to all concerned That way the judging results would be legible. The electronic data files would also serve as a source of aggregate analysis at a later date, i.e, the most frequent deficiency in a particular category for a given model or year Corvette, identification of "trends", recurring issues etc. etc. A lot could be done with electronic data files that is just too time consuming and expensive to do with hard copy documents.

You make good points Ed, and I have been waiting for this NCRS electronic wonder land for decades. (We are trying to get there at work, but have yet to do so, and we have a lot more money at work than NCRS does.) My dream was to have scanners so the later C3 as well as C4 and C5 judges could scan the parts tags and the numbers would electronically populate the proper fields on the judging form; that is until I met a member who works for Zebra Technologies Corporation (look them up) who was very eager for that day to come.

I will also point out that the instant availability of the judging forms is a negative from an administrative point of view since it is NCRS policy to discourage owners from comparing judging results with each other. We do not want to create a situation in which one car is compared to another.

**Mark D.** · August 19, 2015, 09:39 AM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

Originally posted by Russ Steinhaus (5540)

Same issue here Brian. It is also amazing how many times high level judges don't know what they are doing or looking at.

That's a generalized 'drive by' comment that is easy to throw out there. Maybe you could muster up the integrity to be more specific.

Mark

**Bill L.** · August 19, 2015, 09:55 AM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

From a price perspective ---

A new iPad Air can be had for $399 (16GB) or $449 (32GB) --- either would suffice ---WiFi only --- no phone capability.

One other issue would be to start with the basics for the application -- maybe a spread sheet populated with the line items and several canned pull downs for deductions ---- and of course open text for special situations --- this would eliminate the need for a traditional programming language.

This might be a away to get it going vs. trying to get someone with Visual Basic, C# or .NET or Java skills to build and maintain the app.

Regards
Bill

**George W.** · August 19, 2015, 10:32 AM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

Many good points here, I will add that when I sign a judge sheet I PRINT my name and add my ncrs #...
That way the "owner" can look me up if there is a question. I print well;

at least no "owner" has called me re a judge question.

Finally, I am 4 points south of 400 and I agree with "the buss driver"...one should not take shots at any judge w/o saying who, when, what, where, etc. The judges I have worked with have all been professional, knowledgeable, and caring. I believe it takes
too much time, money, knowledge, and learning for a judge, at any level, to go judge at any Meet and not put out 100% effort.

Bottom line any/all ncrs judges should care re owners and their cars.
After all, we are all a car owner or a judge...and often both.

I step off my box now

**William B.** · August 19, 2015, 02:57 PM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

I have had many cars judged, If a judge finds a fault, I do my research and make it correct. DO NOT change your car on what a judge writes or makes reference to. He may be 100% correct but I believe the owner should only make changes after the owner does all the research and believes a change should be made.
I believe notes should be small and simple, then the owner should research.

**Patrick H.** · August 19, 2015, 09:12 PM

Re: Judging Sheet Legibility

Originally posted by Terry McManmon (3966)

You make good points Ed, and I have been waiting for this NCRS electronic wonder land for decades. (We are trying to get there at work, but have yet to do so, and we have a lot more money at work than NCRS does.) My dream was to have scanners so the later C3 as well as C4 and C5 judges could scan the parts tags and the numbers would electronically populate the proper fields on the judging form;

Same here.
I would not think it would be difficult.
You could likely make an app with the most common deduction reasons as a pull-down, and others could be typed in place.

Might be easier at the June judging venue, but no money to be spent there either.

Judging Sheet Legibility

Judging Sheet Legibility

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