Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust - NCRS Discussion Boards

Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

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  • Gary B.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • February 1, 1997
    • 7018

    Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

    For the fun of it at my monthly chapter meeting last week, I provided C2 judging sheets to people and asked that they go thru them independently and make deducts for added side exhaust. The goal was to see what people with a wide variety of judging experience would come up with for the total deduction. Twelve people chose to play the game. The range of total deducts was from 69 to 111, with an average of 91 points.

    The biggest points disparity among judges came from Ops and Exterior, Body Fiberglass & Component Fit. For Ops, some people chose to deduct all 25 points, while others chose 16, 12, 8, or 0. The zero deduct for Ops was justified by some people based on the situation of indoor meets, where Ops is done first outside, and the Ops team would therefore would not know that the side exhaust was added. The 16, 12, and 8 deducts were defended based on the idea that there is lots of acceptable variability in exhaust tone and noise and only a partial deduct was reasonable to some judges. I was in the 25 point deduct camp, in part based on the full deduct guideline for such added items as described in the Judging Reference Manual. (As an aside, to a person there was no enthusiasm for a full deduct for Body Fiberglass that would have been consistent with a very strict interpretation of the Judging Reference Manual.)

    For Body Fiberglass the deducts ranged from 2 each for originality and condition, i.e., a total of 4 deducts, to 10 points each for a total of 20 points.

    For those Ops and Fiberglass line items, the maximum combined deduct for the mock judging was 45 points; the minimum combined deduct was 4 points. This 41 point spread largely explains the difference between the low grand total of 69 points and the high grand total of 111 points. It was a fun judging game.

    Gary
  • Larry M.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • January 1, 1992
    • 2688

    #2
    Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

    I recall about 100 total points being typical at most Regional (and/or National) Meets.

    Larry

    Comment

    • Gary B.
      Extremely Frequent Poster
      • February 1, 1997
      • 7018

      #3
      Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

      Larry,

      If one gets a full 25-point deduct for exhaust in Ops, then the grand total has to close to or exceed 110. The Ops deduct is key.

      Gary

      Comment

      • Michael W.
        Expired
        • April 1, 1997
        • 4290

        #4
        Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

        If the side pipes looked/sounded like original factory GM, why would there be a deduct during Ops?

        Comment

        • Gary B.
          Extremely Frequent Poster
          • February 1, 1997
          • 7018

          #5
          Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

          Originally posted by Michael Ward (29001)
          If the side pipes looked/sounded like original factory GM, why would there be a deduct during Ops?
          Michael,

          I think the answer depends on when Ops judging occurs, I don't think there would be any deduct presuming the Ops judges go first and they don't know the the side pipes are added.

          However, if Ops judging is done after chassis and exterior teams have determined the side exhaust is added, and if the Ops team now knows the exhaust should exit at the rear of the car, then I think most would conclude the side exhaust does not have the characteristics of underbody exhaust. Also, if one ascribes to the full deduct guidelines in the Judging Reference Manual, then I assume the Ops team could make a full deduct based on the Reference Manual.

          Gary

          Comment

          • Joseph S.
            National Judging Chairman
            • March 1, 1985
            • 866

            #6
            Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

            There should be no deduct for OPS unless there is an exhaust leak. OPS is a works or doesn't work judging. You can have any exhaust system on the car. Just like radios, headlights, voltage regulator, alternator, horns, etc. As long as it works, it should pass ops.

            Comment

            • Gary B.
              Extremely Frequent Poster
              • February 1, 1997
              • 7018

              #7
              Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

              Originally posted by Joseph Scafidi (8321)
              There should be no deduct for OPS unless there is an exhaust leak. OPS is a works or doesn't work judging. You can have any exhaust system on the car. Just like radios, headlights, voltage regulator, alternator, horns, etc. As long as it works, it should pass ops.
              Joseph,

              I don't want to rehash the entire discussion, but check out the thread "Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2" that I started n April 30. Opinion about which and how many deducts to make if very divided, including for Ops.

              Gary

              Comment

              • Gary H.
                Expired
                • June 8, 2008
                • 308

                #8
                Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

                In theory couldnt you pass the ops section with a mini torque starter as long as the car properly started? There would be a noticeably different sound to the start, but I dont think it would matter for ops.

                I would think the same would apply for exhaust in terms of ops. As long the side exhaust was factory style it should pass without issue.

                Comment

                • Joseph S.
                  National Judging Chairman
                  • March 1, 1985
                  • 866

                  #9
                  Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

                  Gary H, Correct! Just as a set of Halogen headlights will be much brighter. An aftermarket radio will sound much better and a cloth soft top will look real cool! A non original engine will start and perform properly. All are not correct for flight judging in their Originality and Condition judging but will pass the "Works or doesn't work" on the OPS sheet!

                  Comment

                  • Gary B.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • February 1, 1997
                    • 7018

                    #10
                    Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

                    Originally posted by Gary Haftel (49128)
                    In theory couldnt you pass the ops section with a mini torque starter as long as the car properly started? There would be a noticeably different sound to the start, but I dont think it would matter for ops.

                    I would think the same would apply for exhaust in terms of ops. As long the side exhaust was factory style it should pass without issue.
                    Gary,

                    I think if you follow the Judging Reference Manual guidelines about things like added (GM) side exhaust, a full Ops deduct is warranted, similar to the full deduct required for exhaust on the Chassis judging sheets.

                    Gary

                    Comment

                    • Joseph S.
                      National Judging Chairman
                      • March 1, 1985
                      • 866

                      #11
                      Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

                      Gary, I think you are over extending the guidelines for OPS judging. There is no originality and Condition aspect to OPS judging. Also, you would be severely DOUBLE DIPPING into the Exhaust deduction. Remember, you never want to hit someone twice for the same object. I do not see a full deduct being proper for OPS judging.

                      Comment

                      • Harry S.
                        Extremely Frequent Poster
                        • July 31, 2002
                        • 5293

                        #12
                        Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

                        This can be interpreted many ways, thus the confusion..

                        19. Exhaust: tone, leakage, noise ( From the 63 to 67 Ops Sheet)


                        Comment

                        • Gary B.
                          Extremely Frequent Poster
                          • February 1, 1997
                          • 7018

                          #13
                          Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

                          Originally posted by Harry Sadlock (38513)
                          This can be interpreted many ways, thus the confusion..

                          19. Exhaust: tone, leakage, noise ( From the 63 to 67 Ops Sheet)
                          Harry,

                          I agree with you.

                          Also, I've been told by some very experienced judges that each line item in Ops is not an all or nothing choice. I think there is confusion on that aspect as well.

                          Gary

                          Comment

                          • Gary B.
                            Extremely Frequent Poster
                            • February 1, 1997
                            • 7018

                            #14
                            Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

                            Originally posted by Harry Sadlock (38513)
                            This can be interpreted many ways, thus the confusion..

                            19. Exhaust: tone, leakage, noise ( From the 63 to 67 Ops Sheet)
                            Harry,

                            Now you have me wondering: just how is "tone" and "noise" meant to be judged by the Ops team?

                            Gary

                            Comment

                            • Harry S.
                              Extremely Frequent Poster
                              • July 31, 2002
                              • 5293

                              #15
                              Re: Update on discussion of total deducts for added side exhaust

                              Originally posted by Gary Beaupre (28818)
                              Harry,

                              Now you have me wondering: just how is "tone" and "noise" meant to be judged by the Ops team?

                              Gary
                              I think of tone as what I hear at the end of the pipe, noise and leakage at the header. My 2 cents.

                              The Ops team has no idea if it's a real pipe car or not. The Exterior team needs to tell them as well as the other teams to see if deductions are necessary.


                              Comment

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