How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

[Jim S.]

My newly aquired 194675S105756 has a 3858180 block. I understand these were a very limited block cast in Tonawanda and machined in Flint.

The absence of a date code in the normal location can be confusion. Especially when the casting number is covered by the Powerglide 'shift' bracket.

Any input is appreciated.

[Edward J.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

Jim , By your serial number your car seems pretty early, According to the judging guide This block was used in the later production. I really don't know how someone can prove that its the original to your car. I guess the only thing is have a well known stamp pad expert look at the pad and dates and then who knows. what might help is if you could provide some pic's of other Tonawanda stamp pad with all there dates and Vin. around your date. This could be a touchy subject.

[Jim S.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

Jim , By your serial number your car seems pretty early, According to the judging guide This block was used in the later production. I really don't know how someone can prove that its the original to your car. I guess the only thing is have a well known stamp pad expert look at the pad and dates and then who knows. what might help is if you could provide some pic's of other Tonawanda stamp pad with all there dates and Vin. around your date. This could be a touchy subject.

Edward, I don't see anything in the JG that stated that the blocks appeared late in the 1965 production? (See pgs 82 & 83) Where did you read that? 05756 is a January 4 build date. The pad was not stamped at Tonawanda. They were shipped to Flint for machining and were stamped there.

The car has already achieved Top Flight judging with no engine stamp/casting issues.

[Jim S.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

I found this additional information on a Chris Craft Forum

"There's quite a bit of confusion out there about this particular block, and now having looked into it a bit, I can see why. It appears to be a 327 64-67 Pass, Chevelle, Camaro Small Journal, also used in the 64-67 Truck and the 65 Corvette (in very small quantities for the latter). It does appear to be a 2-bolt block cast in the Tonawanda, NY plant, and not the Saginaw Plant. The 3858180 is a 327ci from a 65 and 66 Passenger, Chevelle and Corvette - Although the 3858180 block was only used in '65 Corvettes for a couple of days when machined bare blocks were shipped from Tonawanda to Flint Engine due to a breakdown at the Saginaw Foundry - very few have ever been seen in Corvettes. Power ratings are supposedly from a low of 250 to a high of 375-hp, but I doubt the latter number is realistic for this 2-bolt motor because it was the fuel injected version. The HE suffix was used on the '65 250 h.p. 327, while the HG suffix was used on the 375 h.p. fuelie. - Sting Ray During a certain time frame, there was a problem with the blocks, or shortage of blocks at the Saginaw foundary, and the plant imported "180" casting # 327 blocks from the Tonawanda, NY foundary. AND, although these are Tonawanda castings, with embossed and debossed "T's", and no oil plug, they were assembled in Flint, and stamped F XX YY ZZ, just like a Flint block. Tonawanda blocks cast and assembled in Tonawanda have an assembly date and suffix of T XX YY ZZ" Can anyone add to the claim that this block was only used for a couple of days! Mine has an assembly date of 12/28

[Edward J.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

Jim, I was referring to the 63/64 JM. I had 64 on my mine. sorry. Ed

[Loren L.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

There had been a strike in the Fall of '64 that shut GM down. I had gotten out of the army in Nov and ordered a '65 Chev conv, contingent on delivery b4 end of the year so I could take Mom to CA to see her sister. On Christmas Eve, no production date...went to Mpls and bought a Daytona
blue/Blue SWC. Mom said "no" to CA in the "toy car". Price? $2650....always easy to overpay.....

[Dan A.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

The absence of a date code in the normal location can be confusion.

In the statement above are you speaking of the block casting date?

I ask as the location is the same for Saginaw and Tonawanda. The number of digits used designateing the year it was cast differs . Saginaw using 1 digit for the year and Tonawanda using 2. If you can't find a casting date on the right (passenger) side of the bell housing flange, then you may have a McKinnon's ( St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada) cast block. In which case the casting date may be found on the side of the block in the frost plug area. I don't recall which side.

Pictures of the three pertinent number sets although not definitive, they are always helpfull. The two sets of stampings on the pad, the cast date and the casting number are needed to better understand.

[Jim S.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

In the statement above are you speaking of the block casting date?

I ask as the location is the same for Saginaw and Tonawanda. The number of digits used designateing the year it was cast differs . Saginaw using 1 digit for the year and Tonawanda using 2. If you can't find a casting date on the right (passenger) side of the bell housing flange, then you may have a McKinnon's ( St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada) cast block. In which case the casting date may be found on the side of the block in the frost plug area. I don't recall which side.

Pictures of the three pertinent number sets although not definitive, they are always helpfull. The two sets of stampings on the pad, the cast date and the casting number are needed to better understand.

Yes, the block casting date. It is a two digit located at the beginning of the block casting number and running at a 90 degree angle to the casting number. (The date runs the same direction as the engine) The car happens to be a Powerglide so the block casting number is covered by the "kick down" bracket mounted to two of the bellhousing bolts. I had to use a dental mirror to read the casting number and the two digit date. So no photos of the casting number or casting date are available.
I have to use two photos to show the engine stamp pad.

[Patrick B.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

The VIN characters should be 5/32" high with a 5/32" spacing center to center. The width of the characters should be 50% of the height. These vin characters look wider with wider spacing in the photo at least. They are also further back from the edge of the pad than typical. It would be worth measuring the cumulative spacing of the characters (15/16" from the center of the first 5 to the center of the last 6) and their size to evaluate if they are original.

[Dan A.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

You would be wise to follow Patricks advise.

As the birthday book indicates that 5756 was built December 30, 1964 and possibly finished January 4th '65 the engine build date and car build date are tight.

So the question arises, what is the build date on the trim tag and is this an A O Smith body or St. Louis?

Again a picture of the trim tag would be good.

[Jim S.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

You would be wise to follow Patricks advise.

As the birthday book indicates that 5756 was built December 30, 1964 and possibly finished January 4th '65 the engine build date and car build date are tight.

So the question arises, what is the build date on the trim tag and is this an A O Smith body or St. Louis?

Again a picture of the trim tag would be good.

Trim.jpg It is a AO Smith car. E22, 12/22/64, AO Smith body #1868

[Jim S.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

gauge.jpg

Patrick, I don't understand your comment of "(15/16" from the center of the first 5 to the center of the last 6)" Could you please restate. Thanks.

[Patrick B.]

Re: How scarce are 65 3858180 blocks dated 64?

Jim: The measurement your picture shows is from the outside of the first character to the outside of the last character. It is one half a character width greater on each end than the measurement from the center of the first character to the center of the last character. The center to center measurement of a string of 7 characters is 15/16". Your measurement should be 15/16" plus 2 times the width of half a character. The width of a character is about 5/64" which is the same as two times the width of half a character. Therefore, your measurement should be 15/16" + 5/64" which equals 1.015.


The Flint stamping on your pad looks good, and the vin characters look better in your rubbing than in the photo, but the string appears almost 1/16" longer than that many vin characters should. Sometimes the pieces of type are not completely snug against each other in the holder, but 1/16" is a lot of slop.