CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit - NCRS Discussion Boards

CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

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  • David B.
    Very Frequent User
    • March 1, 1980
    • 689

    #16
    Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

    Originally posted by Bob Baird (39424)
    David,

    Since you raced at the Detroit Dragway, take a look at my '57 Corvette BM/SP drag race car. I have zero documentation on it, but it had been in Michigan since the early 1970s before I bought it. Do you recognize it?

    Thanks,

    Bob
    Bob, You are really pushing it now asking me to remember all the corvettes running, there were quite a few. As a matter of fact my push car was a '62 FI Corvette. In the early 60's, Detroit Dragway's procedure for retrieving dragsters following a run was to allow your chase car to run down the strip (rather then the return road) you can imagine the fun the crew had. Still have photos, time slips etc. will take a look if your 57 pops up. I owned a ton of them so if you can give me a "little" more info I might be able to surprise you.

    Comment

    • Stuart F.
      Expired
      • August 31, 1996
      • 4676

      #17
      Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

      I even ran my 57 post there once in 1960, maybe 61 and took home another 10 cent trophy.

      Stu Fox

      Comment

      • Bob B.
        Very Frequent User
        • March 1, 2003
        • 831

        #18
        Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

        Jim,

        Lou Cuttitta also used the nozzle block air filters on the Corvette SS FI unit. A pic is on p. 40 of Corvette Milestones by Mike Mueller. I'm assuming that, at high speeds, the air meter dwarfed the contribution of the nozzle block filters. At speed, wouldn't flow from these filters more equalize minor differences in air flow?

        Also, take a look at the spacers for the air diffuser cone. There are a couple of smaller spacers added to pull the cone back from the air meter throat for even more air flow!

        Bob
        Attached Files

        Comment

        • Bob B.
          Very Frequent User
          • March 1, 2003
          • 831

          #19
          Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

          Dave,

          Glad you like the Hobby Horse! I like applications that modified the stock FI units. Here is a pic of the intake I may use on my Lil Twister drag-race '57 Corvette that I attached pics of higher in the thread. This wasn't done by the factory, but it also used a '57-58 FI unit with the top of the plenum cut off. But, in this instance, someone very professionally, with precise aluminum welding, recessed screw holes, neatly cut aluminum block-offs where the nozzle blocks were, etc., built it into a 2x4 tunnel ram intake. For someone to go to this much trouble, I'd guess it was done before mass production of tunnel rams.

          Bob
          Attached Files

          Comment

          • David B.
            Very Frequent User
            • March 1, 1980
            • 689

            #20
            Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

            Never seen that one before. Who ever did it is my kind of guy, plus he must have had a lot of FI parts laying around he had no other use for.

            Comment

            • Bob B.
              Very Frequent User
              • March 1, 2003
              • 831

              #21
              Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

              Dave,

              I have had a heck of a time trying to get documentation on Lil Twister, so any info you can provide would be GREATLY appreciated!!!

              I've talked with lots of people, such as Dewey Ketner, Jon Lundberg etc., and, right now, I'm waiting for Bones Balogh who is looking at some of his old pics also. I had three-quarters of a page in this month's Hot Rod Deluxe's Scrapbook section and am currently running ads in Hemmings and National Dragster. It's also listed on the HAMB and BarnFinds.com. I have an article coming out in the Solid Axle Corvette Club's On Solid Ground. And, with all the stuff I've been doing, it shows up in a lot of Google searches now, such as if you Google BM/SP Corvette.

              With all that hand-painted lettering and graphics, I just can't believe the car never did anything but go from stoplight to stoplight.

              Lil Twister was purchased around 1972 by a Mike Stuart in Laingsburg, MI, but I don't know where he got it and he is deceased. Bill Gould of AutoAncestry was not able to find previous owners. It has an AAA Michigan sticker in the window and a Tau Kappa Epsilon sticker, so that likely preceded Stuart since he never had it on the road. I've sent notes to TKE to no avail and even a TKE member couldn't get a response!

              So, all I have to go on is what is painted on the car itself. CHEVELAND is on the rear fenders. Cheveland is a French surname just as is Chevrolet. This is neither cLeveland or chevYland. I'd assume this is a driver or sponsor but, if so, why isn't it something like "Joe Cheveland" or "Cheveland Auto Parts" or something like that? I'm assuming CEHVELAND was familiar enough to everyone that nothing else was necessary?

              Of course, we have the car speeding away with a tornado in the dust it's leaving behind with Lil Twister written inside. I just love that!

              The complete front fenders says 327 CU. IN. 350 H.P. This puts it after when 327s came out in the summer of '61, but BM/SP was 1961-67, so that doesn't narrow things down much. Someone speculated that, since any engine was okay in BM/SP, if the car was raced after the Big Blocks came out, it would have had a Big Block. I am surprised at the 350 HP, which would seem to imply the '65-67 hydraulic cam engine, but I can't imagine a hydraulic cam engine in a drag car?

              Headers by Cyclone is on the lower panels behind the front tires. Could Cyclone have been a sponsor? Otherwise, why pick that out of a hundred possible other names?

              Racing number 96 is in the cove, which, to me, indicates that the car was established enough to have been able to have a permanent number, as opposed to putting a different one on with shoe polish at each race?

              So, that is about all I know at this point and most of it is guesses. Take a look at some of the closeups and let me know if you find anything.

              Yours for a surprise!

              Bob
              Attached Files

              Comment

              • Jim L.
                Extremely Frequent Poster
                • September 30, 1979
                • 1808

                #22
                Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

                Originally posted by Bob Baird (39424)
                Jim,

                Lou Cuttitta also used the nozzle block air filters on the Corvette SS FI unit. A pic is on p. 40 of Corvette Milestones by Mike Mueller. I'm assuming that, at high speeds, the air meter dwarfed the contribution of the nozzle block filters. At speed, wouldn't flow from these filters more equalize minor differences in air flow?

                Also, take a look at the spacers for the air diffuser cone. There are a couple of smaller spacers added to pull the cone back from the air meter throat for even more air flow!

                Bob
                Bob,

                I've seen several FI units which do not have idle air flowing through the venturi area of the air meter. The early 4360 '57 FI units are the only production units with this "feature" though. The benefits of metering all incoming air, as was done on all production FI units after the 4360, are significant and I wouldn't recommend not doing it unless absolutely necessary.

                You are right in thinking that the effect of the idle air is insignificant at high air flows. Even so, there is no functional benefit to not taking idle air from the port on the bottom of the air meter.

                Regarding those venturi cone spacers in your picture, their most significant contribution is to weaken the venturi signal which determines the nozzle fuel flow. There is a slight (very, very slight!!!!) increase in overall air flow, but not enough, in my opinion to justify having to compensate for the weaker venturi signal.

                If you really want to wake up a '61 and older FI unit, replace the venturi cone with one from a '63 - '65 FI unit. These cones are open all the way through. I have air flow data for such a configuration that shows air meter flow of nearly 700 CFM. You still have to compensate for the resulting weaker venturi signal, but in this case, the increase in air flow is worth the trouble.

                Here is my mongrel FI which has had this modification (among others):



                (A sharp eye will notice the idle air tubing is missing. When I made this picture, I simply had not yet installed it. Rest assured, the unit does have the stock idle air configuration.)

                Jim

                Comment

                • Bob B.
                  Very Frequent User
                  • March 1, 2003
                  • 831

                  #23
                  Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

                  Jim,


                  A sharp eye would also notice that your unit looks to have been split in two for porting, etc. and then welded back together. What's the word on this?


                  If I were looking for HP, that use of the '63-65 diffuser cone sounds like a good idea. But, for the Hobby Horse, I'm aiming at as it was done by Duntov and team.

                  As far as air flow, I used to have a dual fuel meter unit off a Cheetah. Wish I hadn't sold it, but here is a pic.


                  Bob
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                  • Jim L.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • September 30, 1979
                    • 1808

                    #24
                    Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

                    Originally posted by Bob Baird (39424)
                    Jim,


                    A sharp eye would also notice that your unit looks to have been split in two for porting, etc. and then welded back together. What's the word on this?


                    If I were looking for HP, that use of the '63-65 diffuser cone sounds like a good idea. But, for the Hobby Horse, I'm aiming at as it was done by Duntov and team.

                    As far as air flow, I used to have a dual fuel meter unit off a Cheetah. Wish I hadn't sold it, but here is a pic.


                    Bob
                    Good catch, Bob! Yes, the doghouse has been split open and the tuned runners have been shortened to improve high RPM operation. Or at least that was the thinking behind the change. Using Engine Analyzer, I've studied the effect of altering the runner length and concluded that Dolza et all got it right with the as-designed runners. As short as the runners in that doghouse are, I'd have to be operating above 8000 RPM to see any benefit.

                    Also present in that unit but obviously not visible in the picture is a one-off high volume gear pump which flows 50% more fuel per revolution than a stock FI pump. No one really knows its origin or why it was made; one theory is that it was left over from the Buick FI development program. In any event, it's big.

                    My mongrel is well sorted. I removed the stock 7320 unit from my '60 early last year and have been using this unit ever since. A vintage racer buddy of mine wants to evaluate it on his airbox '57 and we plan to do that this year.

                    I like that dual air meter unit you used to have. If you have an engine that needs the air flow, it's hard to improve on what that would be capable of providing.

                    As far as the Hobby Horse FI unit, I totally respect the decision to keep it as it was originally conceived and built. I would do the same. Preserving that bit of history is more important than turning it into an all out performer.

                    Jim

                    Comment

                    • Bob B.
                      Very Frequent User
                      • March 1, 2003
                      • 831

                      #25
                      Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

                      Jim,


                      Here is a pic from the jerrybramlett.net website. Would this be your pump? He speculates that it was a prototype for a FI Cadillac engine.


                      I was hoping mine would be one of those, but John DeGregory still told me that mine was a later one that is a higher volume than the '57 one, but certainly not as big as yours if this one is what you have.


                      Bob

                      Comment

                      • Bob B.
                        Very Frequent User
                        • March 1, 2003
                        • 831

                        #26
                        Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

                        Oops! Pic this time!
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                        • Jim L.
                          Extremely Frequent Poster
                          • September 30, 1979
                          • 1808

                          #27
                          Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

                          Yep, Bob, that is the pump I've got in my mongrel FI unit. It was on EBay and Jerry bought it. After he was through evaluating it, he and I did some horse trading so it could come live here.

                          In addition to its significantly greater pumping capacity, it also has an aluminum end plate (visible in the picture). All production pumps have cast iron end plates.

                          My own theory is that the pump was intended for use in a big block FI application. Makes sense to me, but it's just a guess. A stock pump is all-in in an engine of around 450 HP, or so conventional wisdom goes. Since even the first big blocks showed up at 425 HP, if there had been a desire to adapt FI to them, and there was, then a higher volume pump would have been mandatory to have some design margin.

                          Pumping volume per rotation is a function of gear width and gear diameter and you say the HH FI has a higher volume pump? Are the gears larger than stock? (Stock gears are ~.480 wide and ~.800 dia).

                          Jim

                          Comment

                          • David B.
                            Very Frequent User
                            • March 1, 1980
                            • 689

                            #28
                            Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

                            Bob,
                            The time frame your car ran is about the same as mine. I think I have some old programs, newsletters etc. from Detroit, Milan, Onandaga (sp.?) etc. plus Michigan Hot Rod Assoc. which ran New Baltimore. Give me some time to dig up. Dave B

                            Comment

                            • Bob B.
                              Very Frequent User
                              • March 1, 2003
                              • 831

                              #29
                              Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

                              Jim,

                              Ken Kayser's FI development book shows two different big block FI units on pp. 441-442. Your pump may well have been for one of them.

                              I haven't measured the gears on mine, but it is nothing special except that it is a later style pump on the earlier '57 unit.

                              Bob

                              Comment

                              • Bob B.
                                Very Frequent User
                                • March 1, 2003
                                • 831

                                #30
                                Re: CERV I Hobby Horse Prototype Fuel Injection Unit

                                David,

                                I appreciate your help!

                                Bob

                                Originally posted by David Bartush (3288)
                                Bob,
                                The time frame your car ran is about the same as mine. I think I have some old programs, newsletters etc. from Detroit, Milan, Onandaga (sp.?) etc. plus Michigan Hot Rod Assoc. which ran New Baltimore. Give me some time to dig up. Dave B

                                Comment

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