Quality of Judging Fields

[Stuart F.]

Is it just me, or am I getting too old for the NCRS and it's core mission.

At my last couple of Regional and Chapter meets, I've been kind of overwhelmed by the quality of Corvettes presented for judging. Maybe I'm being too picky, but I remember vividly what my 63 Convertible looked like when I first took delivery in August 1963. And, it was no where near as nice as any C-2 I've seen in the latest judging fields. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate these cars, but they look more like show cars that Chevrolet Division would prepare for a major auto show, I.e. Too perfect. I understand why some things have to be allowed for now due to the unavailability of suitable reproduction parts or materials; exterior and interior paints come to mind. Maybe it was just the hanger lights.

Stu Fox

[Leif A.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

Stu,

This is going to get some interesting responses, I'm sure. I know what you're talking about, though. I'll raise my hand as one of those whose car is "too perfect"...it cost me Top Flight at a recent Regional. Paint not typical (shiny door jams, shiny hood drip rails, overall paint too shiny), frame powder coated (not as left factory), stainless brake lines, solid state V/R, Michelin red line radials and the list goes on. But, this was the way I chose to restore this car. I couldn't bring myself to spend the kind of monies involved in a complete body off frame restoration and do it like the factory did back in 1967. I wanted mine to be (IMHO) nicer then when it left St. Louis 47 years ago. I, also, drive my car...a LOT...whenever the sun is out. I wanted it to be as reliable as possible, hence some of the modern updates. Nothing was done to this car during restoration that can't be undone by the next owner, should they so desire. But, I think that's what we're seeing...guys that have waited half their lives to own their dream just want it to be as pretty and shiny as possible...better than new.

[Stuart F.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

Leif;

Please don't take this personally, I'm all for what you've done. It's your car and you should enjoy it. My concern is for those that may over restore their cars to the point where they can only drive it on and off a trailer. I too have made a number of changes to my 63 over the years, then undone them thinking I might want to have it judged. But then I hit a deer - the second front end collision it incurred since new. So now I have an electric choke as well as a number of other changes to make it more driveable and happy for it. I shouldn't and don't want to criticize anyone else.

Stu Fox

[Edward J.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

Stu, I think a lot has to do with the values of the cars and once we dip our hands into anything when restoring its never going to exactly like the factory, Its only original once, after 50 or 60 years of being out doors in the sun,wind, rain, snow it take a toll on the corvette. so as most corvette owners once the restoration process begins why not bring it back as you want to see it. Most of the NCRS judges will only take minor deducts for over restored cars and generally does not hurt the Flight judging as long as the rest of the car has correctness, So one can still receive a Top Flight. I like to drive my 63 and generally put about a 1000 miles a year on my car. I restored my car completely, down to the painting, top, and seats. hopefully it will be the last time I have to do this as the parts are still climbing even though we went through the recession.

[Jimmy G.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

We have often speculated that a brand new C-2 brought onto a judging field today might only score 95 % or so. We have come to expect over restored as the normal.

[Gary H.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

I think that you have to admire the original cars that are brought out for judging. You can clearly see that even though the parts are 40 plus years old, the finishes were nothing close to the repro parts being sold today.

My 69 is a basically unrestored survivor beyond the paint and carpeting. I understand the challenge that cars like mine have to score well at judged events when the other cars being presented are nut and bolt restored trailer queens. I received the Duntov at KC. I went to a local car show about an hour from my house 2 weekends ago. It absolutely poured on me for the entire drive home (car wash) I never bothered wiping it down and have used it as my daily driver every day for the past 2 weeks.

[Steve G.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

Then there is the question of preservation. If you restore using the finishes of the day, lacquer paint, low quality enamels on the painted components, no protection from the elements on many parts it will not take long before they no longer look like they did on departure from the factory anyways. And now its not even a survivor. Its a rusting restoration. My approach has been to strive for as close an appearance as I can get using more modern materials and more thorough application. I use an Iron paint over epoxy primer on the frames, for example. Of course it appears better than the oe, but it will still look that way in 10 years.

I can't wrap my head around doing a full restoration in a manner that would leave the car no longer show/judging worthy in 5 years.
Steve

[Michael J.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

I find NCRS very moderate and forgiving when it comes to condition, compared to other judging groups. For instance, at the Shelby American Auto Club judging, I have been advised not to drive or use my car at all after restoration, and have it judged for the triple crown quickly within a year to 18 months, since finishes and condition are expected to be pristine to qualify for Concours Gold. NCRS does not really expect everything to be like new, with plating like zinc dichromate resembling jewelry like SAAC does. I think NCRS is much more forgiving and easy to put in a well driven car and still get Top Flight.

[Steven B.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

Agreed Michael that NCRS has a broad range of acceptance compared to many other organizations. And I know what you mean Stu. I watched my '77 and '78 come off the truck. The '77 was kept by my dealer for a week for a complete repaint and the transport document showing paint and body flaws/damage was really marked up. Both front fenders were repaired at the beltline due to dirty molds being run and not cleaned. (I have seen this on numerous cars in the era.) My '78 rolled off the truck with ripped door upholstery glued with weather strip glue, touchups with brushed silver, the back bumper has a part number showing through the paint and a 1" silver and gray stripe tape overlayed on a paint nick on the right front bumper! Some didn't come out as good as the restored cars you see today. I have a good friend who was an Auburn, Cord, Dusey judge and shop owner with an original Auburn. He said todays restored cars look much better than what was delivered. Same was told to me by a member of the white ghost team touring with the cars back then. Materials and process have greatly improved and expectations have greatly increased. Unless you are collecting Social Security and on Medicare, experienced the draft and maybe vacationed in SEA you don't know what these cars looked like when new. Steve

[Mark D.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

If it ain't rusty, it ain't real.

May the rust be with you.

The above remarks are from The Oracle of Oxide, who resides deep in the swamps of Florida and is wise well beyond his years.

[Bill W.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

Steven I got it all but the vacation in SEA .I had a high number in the first lottery .( the only one I ever won) . I worked at a Chevy dealer in the 70s & we painted almost all the new Corvettes that came in before the owner seen them . I agree the restored cars are waaay better than when built . I just hope when judges see mine with lightly buffed lacquer & no clear they are smart enough to know what they should look like .

[Tom M.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

MY thoughts are that I think you should keep your original car as original as possible and I love original cars......but
if you restore it make it look better than new..........just thinking out loud.

and yes the light were bright in the hanger

[Steve M.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

I'm a newbie to NCRS, so feel free to regard my opinion with all the deference due to the uninitiated. When I went to the national last year, I was underwhelmed at the quality of some of the cars. I understand that cars are original once and all that, but some cars were kinda ratty, if you will. Instead of looking like they were as delivered, they looked more like what you'd expect to see on a used car lot five years after delivery. At some point you have to tell grandma that it's time to throw away the halter top.

At a national event, I guess I was expecting the cream of the crop. The C1 cars as a group met my expectations of high quality examples, no doubt due to the fact they had been restored. At Pebble Beach, for example, how many of those cars are finished as they left the factory?

One more story - at another NCRS event, I saw a car where a fellow had painted his car several times in an attempt to get it to look as it left the factory, and I'm sorry, but it was pretty shabby. I just can't imagine paying a significant amount for a paint job and having to explain to your friends that it was the genuinely the way they left the factory.

No offense to those that like untouched, patina cars - just stating my impressions as one new to the group.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

At a national event, I guess I was expecting the cream of the crop. The C1 cars as a group met my expectations of high quality examples, no doubt due to the fact they had been restored. At Pebble Beach, for example, how many of those cars are finished as they left the factory?

Steve,

NCRS events are not concours events. It's as simple as that. They are judging events where cars are compared to a highly described standard, not cleaning contests where the best condition that still looks sorta like the factory dreamed about wins the prize. Over-restored Pebble Beach cars don't do well in NCRS events, and NCRS cars don't do so well at Pebble Beach/Amelia Island/etc. Five year old restorations as well as 43 year old original cars (like mine) are equally welcome at our events.

Having been to many NCRS (and Bloomington and one Pebble Beach) events over the years I can assure you that each event is different than the one before. Some may have nicer cars, some more, some less. That's just the way it goes when the owner gets to choose if he wants to bring a car, not where a car is pre-qualified (aka Pebble Beach) and invited.

Patrick

[Stuart F.]

Re: Quality of Judging Fields

Steven B.;

Guess I'm guilty on all your criteria except I didn't just take a vacation in SEA, I went back for seconds as a contractor for a total of 6 years (13 months w/Uncle Sam, then a break for 2 years to marry and have twin babies, then back to SEA as a contractor for another 5 years). My only point here is so one can understand why perhaps my car survived the way it did by being in and out of storage a couple of times.

Stu Fox