NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

[Larry E.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

Larry,

Non original (restamped) engines are OK in NCRS, as long as it cannot be proven that the original engine was one of lower horsepower or lower displacement. The only deductions to be made on reproduction engines are those related to the degree that the current configuration differs from original in appearance.

There are lots of deductions taken on original engines as well. This is not an exact science, and a judge can and does make mistakes. The only way to know, FOR SURE if an engine is original to a car is by using a database such as that compiled by Al Grenning.

Most counterfeits involve trim tag changes, and the reason for this is that since about 2003, it can be easily proven, forensically, that a trim tag is not original. Another big counterfeit item is sidepipes, because sometimes an amateur tries to pass off a half-@ssed upgrade as original. It is very difficult to prove that an engine option has been upgraded.

Joe: I pride myself to think I'm a logical type of guy and try to be objective. Let's see if I got this correct:

We put more emphasis on a $5.00 trim tag and can stop the judging just because we are smart enough(at least we think we are) to know if it's orginal or not. We are not
smart enough to know if a $10K engine is original to the car and the most important part of it as it sits. Thus the engine gets a free ride. The above don't seem logical to me. Not complaining as those are the rules and we will comply. Larry

[Terry M.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

Joe: I pride myself to think I'm a logical type of guy and try to be objective. Let's see if I got this correct:

We put more emphasis on a $5.00 trim tag and can stop the judging just because we are smart enough(at least we think we are) to know if it's orginal or not. We are not
smart enough to know if a $10K engine is original to the car and the most important part of it as it sits. Thus the engine gets a free ride. The above don't seem logical to me. Not complaining as those are the rules and we will comply. Larry

Larry

Cost (even if your cost numbers are tilted to make your point) has nothing to do with it.

There can be no legitimate reason to change a trim tag. Engines blow up/wear out all the time.

Instead of stirring the pot I would encourage all of you to read the NCRS Judging Reference Manual 8th Edition. There are sections on prior knowledge and the NCRS definition of counterfeiting. I know it is not as much fun as getting the masses armed with torches and pitchforks, but reading the instructions is IMO more rewarding, and of course there is always the chance to learn something.

[Steve G.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

Steve,

Some of your musings are not representative of the way things are. First, the point of NCRS FLIGHT judging (not Bowtie/Crossed Flags) is the APPEARANCE of originality. There is no difference in this aspect as applies to the engine or any other component. The only time a car is labeled as "counterfeit" is when intent to deceive is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. There are probably thousands of Top Flight cars with big blocks that were originally smallblocks. The reason that they passed judging is that intent to decieve could not be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, although deductions were probably taken for stamp pad or stamp appearance. This ain't fair, because it is very difficult to prove fraud with a NOM. It has always been my feeling that a car with a NOM should be relegated to no better than Second Flight for this very reason. Any NCRS judge worth his salt knows this (nod....nod....wink....wink). Bloomington had it right up until a few years ago.

The VIN is stamped into the frame in 2 places. NCRS only judges a car (this does NOT apply to Bowtie/Crossed Flags judging) to the extent that things can be seen. The reason frame VIN stamps, axle and trans cast dates and stamps are not judged is because the judges are too old and fat to get underneath and see these areas. Same goes for trans linkage.

That's an interesting take, NCRS labelled counterfeit or not counterfeit is determined solely by "intent". Manslaughter or first degree murder. In as much as cars can't form intent, only people can, does the car come off the list when it changes hands until such time as the new owner attempts to deceive someone? Can the car come off the list if the owner comes clean? Shouldn't the list be of people rather than cars? It would seem to me that NCRS may have their backside hanging out a mile by keeping/publicizing such a list.

And how much has to be "wrong" to be labelled a counterfeit. A car that had f41 added in the restoration could be labelled as a counterfeit and placed on the list if intended to deceive someone into believing the car was originally equipped with that. Or is it just big ticket, low numbers things that can lead to the labelling? Where does one find the criteria for the list here on the site?

In a post I read a while back about "reproduced" tank sheets it was inferred that certain details about the sheets were being secreted in an effort to foil those that would seek to duplicate them. Understandable. But on the other hand, no efforts are made to conceal how to make the best restamp of a block. And if the goal is to produce the "most original appearance" shouldn't the same stance be taken on tank sheets as restamping components?

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

Joe: I pride myself to think I'm a logical type of guy and try to be objective. Let's see if I got this correct:

We put more emphasis on a $5.00 trim tag and can stop the judging just because we are smart enough(at least we think we are) to know if it's orginal or not. We are not
smart enough to know if a $10K engine is original to the car and the most important part of it as it sits. Thus the engine gets a free ride. The above don't seem logical to me. Not complaining as those are the rules and we will comply. Larry

You're making the common mistake of presuming that the goal of Flight judging is to authenticate a car and all it's details and nuances. It isn't. Period.

The reason why trim tags are given special scrutiny was outlined above. No similar reason exists for an engine pad.

[Steve G.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

You're making the common mistake of presuming that the goal of Flight judging is to authenticate a car and all it's details and nuances. It isn't. Period.

The reason why trim tags are given special scrutiny was outlined above. No similar reason exists for an engine pad.

I just saw a listing on Ebay, can't say it was a Corvette for sure, but the owner said the trim and vin tags were in the house because the car was being stored outside. Or words to that effect.

Don't we all take our tags in at night and hide them under our pillows?

[Jaime G.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

Larry

Cost (even if your cost numbers are tilted to make your point) has nothing to do with it.

There can be no legitimate reason to change a trim tag. Engines blow up/wear out all the time.

Instead of stirring the pot I would encourage all of you to read the NCRS Judging Reference Manual 8th Edition. There are sections on prior knowledge and the NCRS definition of counterfeiting. I know it is not as much fun as getting the masses armed with torches and pitchforks, but reading the instructions is IMO more rewarding, and of course there is always the chance to learn something.

Terry, torches and pitchforks is old school. In the 21st Century masses march with AK 47's.

[Edward M.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

Terry, torches and pitchforks is old school. In the 21st Century masses march with AK 47's.

I got a laser cannon.

[Joe C.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

Joe: I pride myself to think I'm a logical type of guy and try to be objective. Let's see if I got this correct:

We put more emphasis on a $5.00 trim tag and can stop the judging just because we are smart enough(at least we think we are) to know if it's orginal or not. We are not
smart enough to know if a $10K engine is original to the car and the most important part of it as it sits. Thus the engine gets a free ride. The above don't seem logical to me. Not complaining as those are the rules and we will comply. Larry

My friend,

It has nothing to do with "smarts", but if you can read a cookbook, you will easily discern a repop TT from an original one.

This is NOT to say that some high roller car flippers will not buy an original TT from a scrapped car and attach it to the car in question.

[Edward M.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

Larry


There can be no legitimate reason to change a trim tag.

That may not be entirely true. I am thinking about the 67 L-89 car that was burned in the fire. The VIN tag survived, but the thin aluminum trim tag was apparently destroyed.

That rare of a car may be worth trying to resurrect.

It would not be the first time that a car was rebuilt around an original set of tags / frame / etc. and ultimately top flighted.

I understand the sensitivity of trim tag replacement, but I am wondering if there should not be some "latitude" for a situation like this.

I am thinking perhaps a scenario that allows for a replacement trim tag with a minor deduction where:

1. The information on the original trim tag is documented (like pictures prior to the fire)
2. The information from the original trim tag is duplicated (so no additions or color changes occur)
3. The vehicle is identified as having a replacement trim tag due to the destruction of the original tag.

Just some thoughts.

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

Pedro-

I believe such a situation has already been blessed, maybe 2-3 years ago?

[Edward M.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

Pedro-

I believe such a situation has already been blessed, maybe 2-3 years ago?

Cool, thanks Mike

[Gene M.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

All rare optioned or configured with very low production numbers is now the owners obligation to supply acceptable documentation prior to flight judging. This was a new decree last year or so. So no L89 or L88's will be judged without verification that is accepted by NCRS. This should stop rare "new finds" or "new creations" from just showing up.............. So unless the '67 L89 is real chances are it will not be at the NCRS meet.

[Terry M.]

Re: NCRS Judging - Prior Knowledge - Owner's Statements

Terry, torches and pitchforks is old school. In the 21st Century masses march with AK 47's.

Yes, AKs and a cell phone plugged into Twitter