judging dealer installed items with documentation

[Bruce M.]

My 90% original 66 has a locking gas cap that came from the dealer when delivered to the original owner, who I know. He never got the factory cap when he took delivery and I have the dealer invoice showing the locking cap option. Can anyone tell me if this is sufficient documentation to avoid a points deduction? The JRM says something to the effect of "proper documentation may be acceptable". Somehow it seems more original to have the locking cap than buying another that was not delivered with the car.

Bruce

[Jimmy G.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

In short "As produced in St. Louis with normal dealer prep" A locking gas cap is not normal dealer prep and will not get a lot of points

[Russ S.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

Should be a full deduct for missing factory gas cap.

[Ara G.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

As it's been said before, as it left the doorway at St. Louis is how it's judged. Dealer installed gas cap is looked upon the same way as dealer installed side pipes, dealer installed luggage racks, etc. Your car had a Stant manufacturing vented gas cap with paper gasket and an SM logo on the underside of the cap when it left the plant, and that's how it's judged. Don't mean to sound matter of fact at all, it's just how the car's are judged. Regards. ARA

[Bruce M.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

Is the consensus that the ORIGINAL dealer invoice, a relatively rare item, carries no weight in this case? If I buy and install an original cap, it will obviously not be the one that came to the dealer from the factory. Quoting JRM p3: "Controversial Items: If you suspect something to be controversial about your Corvette, but you believe it to be historically authentic, please bring documentation to support your case. The burden of proof remains with the owner.... There are numerous cases where an owner's documentation has been accepted." For you judges, is this at all controversial or historically authentic? So far it seems not.

[Chris E.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

Fuel cap is 3 points originality and 3 points condition. I see this one as really easy. Go buy a nice reproduction gas cap, put it on the car for judging, lose MAYBE a point or two, then put the locking one back on for daily duties.

$26 plus shipping from Long Island or other suppliers.

[Leif A.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

Fuel cap is 3 points originality and 3 points condition. I see this one as really easy. Go buy a nice reproduction gas cap, put it on the car for judging, lose MAYBE a point or two, then put the locking one back on for daily duties.

$26 plus shipping from Long Island or other suppliers.

I agree, with one exception. If you look at the pictures (where the release bar is welded on top of the cap) of both the LIC cap and the Paragon cap vs. the picture in the Judging guiide, I think you'll agree that the one from Paragon is welded much closer in appearance to original. Also, the word "vented" is much crisper on the Paragon reproduction. IMHO.

[Patrick H.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

Is the consensus that the ORIGINAL dealer invoice, a relatively rare item, carries no weight in this case? If I buy and install an original cap, it will obviously not be the one that came to the dealer from the factory. For you judges, is this at all controversial or historically authentic? So far it seems not.

Not controversial at all.

The dealer added the cap, the dealer added the cost to the invoice, the original buyer didn't even see the original cap.
However, it came from St. Louis with the original style cap - not the locking one - and thus that is what is expected to be seen.
The same situation exists for undercoating, luggage racks and a host of other dealer installed items.

As it's been said before, as it left the doorway at St. Louis is how it's judged. Regards. ARA

And that is still not correct. The car is judged as it left St. Louis and then underwent normal dealer preparation. There is a difference.

Patrick

[John H.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

Is the consensus that the ORIGINAL dealer invoice, a relatively rare item, carries no weight in this case?

Bruce -

Few things are less useful than a DEALER invoice - they're meaningless. What matters is FACTORY documentation, but that isn't going to help either, as no piece of '66 FACTORY documentation (window price sticker, Car Shipper, Corvette Order Copy 5, etc.) is going to show a locking gas cap, as it wasn't available from the factory. As such, the locking cap will cost 3 originality and 3 condition points (unless you buy the correct non-locking cap).

[Michael J.]

[Stuart F.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

My 63 came with a white shift knob. I long suspected that someone changed it out before delivery. I was not the wiser at the time because I was used to Vettes and Passenger 4 speeds similarly equipped for years prior. I also had a dealer provide me with a locking cap, in addition to my original, and had them install a matching hardtop (may have even been from a 64). I didn't care at the time about originality. Hense, I shied away from judging through the years even though my car is mostly original and I am the original owner with all the original paper work. I value my car as much or more than any trailer queen with repro parts, but I do not begrudge any one from doing what they want with their car - and I love them all!

Stu Fox

[Michael J.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

There is no doubt dealers switched out whatever customers wanted to sell any car. I have a '68 GT500KR Shelby, and it sat on the lot unsold from early May '68 until Nov. '68, when a customer insisted on an AM/8-track be installed, it was, but I lose points every time it is judged as it was not originally on the car from the factory, though it was available, and the Marti report never lies.

[Michael W.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

Is the consensus that the ORIGINAL dealer invoice, a relatively rare item, carries no weight in this case? If I buy and install an original cap, it will obviously not be the one that came to the dealer from the factory. Quoting JRM p3: "Controversial Items: If you suspect something to be controversial about your Corvette, but you believe it to be historically authentic, please bring documentation to support your case. The burden of proof remains with the owner.... There are numerous cases where an owner's documentation has been accepted." For you judges, is this at all controversial or historically authentic? So far it seems not.

Bruce-

Keep in mind that Flight Judging is about the typical factory production, defined as per above posts, not absolute originality. You have a point that the locking cap has been on the car almost forever but it's no more original (as per the same definition) than any other cap. The only exception would be the one the dealer removed prior to delivery.

[Bruce M.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

Thanks to all for your input. My ultimate goal is 4 stars/Bowtie, and I think the car is worthy. In the meantime the car will be flight judged at Florida regional with Bowtie sign-off, per their requirements. I hate losing points for a gas cap and a clouded headlight among other minor items, but Bowtie standing would not likely be affected by those correct? The JRM says don't do anything but "carefully clean the car". I see no need for the flight judging but it's already registered and of course I want to do the best I can.

[Michael W.]

Re: judging dealer installed items with documentation

Thanks to all for your input. My ultimate goal is 4 stars/Bowtie, and I think the car is worthy. In the meantime the car will be flight judged at Florida regional with Bowtie sign-off, per their requirements. I hate losing points for a gas cap and a clouded headlight among other minor items, but Bowtie standing would not likely be affected by those correct? The JRM says don't do anything but "carefully clean the car". I see no need for the flight judging but it's already registered and of course I want to do the best I can.

In the case of Bowtie, substituting a correct gas cap for what's there now defeats the purpose of the award and could be considered 'cheating'. If the original is gone, it's gone.

A original headlight being cloudy will not hurt during Bowtie.

Flight Judging and Bowtie have little in common when it comes to judging rules.