For Stu Fox and Duke Williams

[Duke W.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

When the Pertronix was in there that ground wire is not necessary so when you converted back it may fault. It's working now so you can rest better and move on to more fun stuff.

Rich

I don't think your statement is correct. I'm not intimately familiar with these devices, but I belived they are essentially electronic switches that perform the same function as the mechanical points - completing (grounding) the DC circuit through the ballast and coil. The electronic switch is electrically connected to the breaker plate, as are points, and if the breaker plate is not well grounded, the DC circuit cannot be completed and the ignition system will not work.

Theoretically the breaker plate is grounded by its contact to the distributor housing and the housing is grounded via the hold down clamp, but the moveable/lubricated connection between the breaker plate and housing is not that reliable. Thus the need for a dedicated ground wire from the breaker plate to the distributor housing.

Duke

[Stuart F.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

I continue to use a ground wire in my distributor with the Dyna-Flyte ball bearing plate, only it uses screw mount lugs on each end. The Pertronics II sensor is like a little plastic box like encapsulated unit mounted with a metal bracket to the former points mounting screw holes on the plate. It is meant to be bent slightly to make a nice parallel gap to the magnet wheel that sandwiches the weight mechanism with the rotor. I don't recall that there is any mention or caution about ensuring a good contact between the mounting bracket and the plate, but I guess it goes without saying (forget the Latin term for that). Of the two wires from the sensor; The black goes to the - (negative) terminal on the coil, and the red to a + (positive) ignition controlled 12 VDC source. When used with a stock coil, the standard power source for the coil would still include the ballast resistor for ON and by-pass for START. Their Flamethrower II coil (which I use) connects directly to an ignition controlled 12 VDC source (I maintain the standard ignition wiring harness by using a 12 Ga. Jumper wire around the ballast resistor terminals). My jumper wire is around the back of the resistor so it is not too obvious.

All the above is FWIW.

Stu Fox

[Richard M.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

I don't think your statement is correct. I'm not intimately familiar with these devices, but I belived they are essentially electronic switches that perform the same function as the mechanical points - completing (grounding) the DC circuit through the ballast and coil. The electronic switch is electrically connected to the breaker plate, as are points, and if the breaker plate is not well grounded, the DC circuit cannot be completed and the ignition system will not work.

Theoretically the breaker plate is grounded by its contact to the distributor housing and the housing is grounded via the hold down clamp, but the moveable/lubricated connection between the breaker plate and housing is not that reliable. Thus the need for a dedicated ground wire from the breaker plate to the distributor housing.

Duke

Duke, I've played around with the Pertronix modules a bit over the years. I had a '59 in here a while back that I restored, and the owner had the Pert already innstalled, so when I re-built the electrical system I re-used it.

There is no requirement to ground the module to the breaker plate. Just 2 wires on the module, Black to coil- and Red to a constant 12v positive ignition source. More info here.....http://www.pertronix.com/support/man...itor12vneg.pdf

When I restored and refinished the distributor I noticed there was no wire between the breaker plate and distributor ground with the Pertronix before. I added the wire as a aid to anyone in the future who may want to go back to points.

Thanks Don for your advice. With me it was no big deal. There aren't too many Fox's on the board so I picked it up quickly, and I certainly don't fault anyone but myself. Just glad that Jeff got his engine running. I was particularly interested due to his car is another 63 L-76 like the one I've lived with for over fifty years.

Thanks Jeff. We all learned something, or re-learned something from your problem. Just wish someone could have answered my associated question about whether the C-1's have power to the coil ONLY through a ballast resistor (no 12 volt source through the starter upon START).

Stu Fox

Stu, All V8 C1's do not have power only to the coil+ from the ballast resistor. But how they were configured during the years was different. The early C1's(1955 V8, 1956 and 1957) have a extra wire from the Ignition switch "Start" terminal to the coil+ to supply full battery voltage at crank. It's a Dark Green wire. The solenoid did not have a provision for the extra wire as later C1 years did. I'm not familiar with the 6 volt 1953 to 1955 6 Cylinder applications but my wiring diagrams tell me they did not have a ballast resistor as the later years did.

In 1958 and through 1962, the solenoid has the extra terminal, which when in Crank/Start position then supplies the full battery voltage to the coil+ through a Dark Green wire.

Rich

[Stuart F.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

Rich;

Thank you for the explanation about C-1's that I was puzzled over. The 62 Fuelie that I recently put a Pertronics II unit in for my son had the dark green wire of which you speak. It was a light gauge wire, about the same as a typical primary wire to the distributor (except for the color). The latter, of course, being black. However, that green wire ran directly from the typical reduced voltage terminal side of the ballast resistor to the + terminal on the coil. When I checked the input and output voltage at the resistor, with the ignition switch ON, I got 12 VDC (either side!). Just for my own concerns, I rechecked the voltage after the engine had run to full warm during our injector tuneup. Then it showed between 8 and 9 VDC on the output terminal.

It didn't really matter anyway with the Pertronics Flamethrower II coil, as all I needed was a good stable 12 VDC ignition switched source, but it puzzled me.

FYI, I still don't like the conversion for the 62 F.I. dual point distributors for the reason I stated before; the dual window non-VAC units have too much space between where the sensor mounts in the distributor base and where the magnet ring (wheel) can be positioned under the rotating centrifugal weight mechanism/rotor. I had to use 5 of their .032" washers just to get the clearance gap to their recommended maximum of .060". I expected to get some wobble or runout that would make attaining and holding the maximum gap impossible, but I lucked out. It was very stable and the unit seemed to work fine. Not having a chance to really road test the car say up to red line, I'm not sure if it qualifies as anything but a plug saver (which is really all the new owner wanted anyway). But, Rich, keep this in mind if you should ever be asked to make such an installation.

Stu Fox

[Joe C.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

The Breakerless SE (mfg by M & H Electronics) relies on the breaker plate to chassis ground because it has one wire into the dist housing, as OEM. Very robust design, but limited because it requires use of the ballast resistor and low output coil.

Pertronics triggers have 2 wires (12V plus ground).

[Richard M.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

Rich;

Thank you for the explanation about C-1's that I was puzzled over. The 62 Fuelie that I recently put a Pertronics II unit in for my son had the dark green wire of which you speak. It was a light gauge wire, about the same as a typical primary wire to the distributor (except for the color). The latter, of course, being black. However, that green wire ran directly from the typical reduced voltage terminal side of the ballast resistor to the + terminal on the coil. When I checked the input and output voltage at the resistor, with the ignition switch ON, I got 12 VDC (either side!). Just for my own concerns, I rechecked the voltage after the engine had run to full warm during our injector tuneup. Then it showed between 8 and 9 VDC on the output terminal.

It didn't really matter anyway with the Pertronics Flamethrower II coil, as all I needed was a good stable 12 VDC ignition switched source, but it puzzled me.

FYI, I still don't like the conversion for the 62 F.I. dual point distributors for the reason I stated before; the dual window non-VAC units have too much space between where the sensor mounts in the distributor base and where the magnet ring (wheel) can be positioned under the rotating centrifugal weight mechanism/rotor. I had to use 5 of their .032" washers just to get the clearance gap to their recommended maximum of .060". I expected to get some wobble or runout that would make attaining and holding the maximum gap impossible, but I lucked out. It was very stable and the unit seemed to work fine. Not having a chance to really road test the car say up to red line, I'm not sure if it qualifies as anything but a plug saver (which is really all the new owner wanted anyway). But, Rich, keep this in mind if you should ever be asked to make such an installation.

Stu Fox

Stu, When you read 12v at the ballast it was likely because the Pertronix module wasn't at a active pickup point, thus no current path via the coil. You were reading a open circuit voltage at the end of the resistor. When you later checked it and read 8 to 9 volts, the unit was probably at a stator pickup point, effectively a closed circuit and the current path was complete via the coil. You were reading the reduced voltage due to the voltage drop through the resistor which was in the circuit then.

Your detailed explanation of the difficulty with the FI dual point distributor is good to know and I'll keep that in mind. I actually have a dual point 914 unit here for a '61 fuelie I'm restoring. It's staying stock.

Rich

[Duke W.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

Duke, I've played around with the Pertronix modules a bit over the years. I had a '59 in here a while back that I restored, and the owner had the Pert already innstalled, so when I re-built the electrical system I re-used it.

There is no requirement to ground the module to the breaker plate. Just 2 wires on the module, Black to coil- and Red to a constant 12v positive ignition source. More info here.....http://www.pertronix.com/support/man...itor12vneg.pdf

When I restored and refinished the distributor I noticed there was no wire between the breaker plate and distributor ground with the Pertronix before. I added the wire as a aid to anyone in the future who may want to go back to points.


Rich

Instruction #8 says: "If the distributor ground wire was removed during the installation process, be sure to reattach it firmly." So this must be important.

The module is likely grounded to the breaker plate by the mounting screws, and, of course, the breaker plate is grounded to the distributor housing via the crimped on ground wire, and the housing is grounded to the engine via the hold down clamp.

It's just a switch that completes the circuit connection to ground, but it's an electronic rather than mechanical switch.

Duke

[Richard M.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

Instruction #8 says: "If the distributor ground wire was removed during the installation process, be sure to reattach it firmly." So this must be important.

The module is likely grounded to the breaker plate by the mounting screws, and, of course, the breaker plate is grounded to the distributor housing via the crimped on ground wire, and the housing is grounded to the engine via the hold down clamp.

It's just a switch that completes the circuit connection to ground, but it's an electronic rather than mechanical switch.

Duke

Duke,

Yup you're right. The base of the unit is metal and needs ground to switch the digital circuit to the coil- black lead. I thought about it again last night after I posted about the missing ground on that '59 and read that Pertronix doc completely. In order to switch ground, one needs a ground source.........

So I started to doubt myself aboutwhat I said. I think I remember now, that the ground wire was just barely hanging by a few strands of copper, so I made a new one. If that wire broke before I got the car in it would have failed with no spark.

The metal mount base is certainly metal.

20111007_box_example.jpg

Thanks for clarifying that and jogging my memory.

Sorry if I confused anyone else here.

Rich

[Stuart F.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

Just to clarify the ground situation for the Pertronics II units, I dug out their instructions. I thought we may be talking apples/oranges between the basic unit and the II unit. I read all the way through their II instructions and did not see any mention of a distributor ground UNTIL I got to their Q & A section where they say "If the engine won't start or runs rough" that you should check all wiring connections. "If a distributor ground wire was removed make sure that it was reattached properly".

My experience with Corvettes has always been to replace ANY ground wherever it was or was supposed to be, and to check for a bad ground first with any electrical related problem; be it a turn signal, radio, or dashboard instrument, etc. I'm sure we all have been bitten by that, specially with the newer models.

Stu Fox

[Richard M.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

Grounds and Corvettes reminds me of antique wooden boats and ground problems. Those darn running lights always failed at night. My stern light on my '57 Coronado almost got me a ticket one night in the middle of a lake in NH. A bad ground on the base due to a loose ground terminal. I had to fix it while the Marine Patrol Officer waited next to me.

[Don H.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

Rich
of course they would fail at night,
you never turn them on during the day,,,

[Richard M.]

Re: For Sty Fox and Duke Williams

Rich
of course they would fail at night,
you never turn them on during the day,,,

Wipers only break when it rains too. I could never understand that.