Internal lifter failure??

[Tom L.]

Two years ago I had the "joy" of having the heads rebuilt and replacing my worn cam on my '72 LS5. Initially the results were great, it ran well, the oil stopped burning and I was happy. The following spring on the day of my first run of the season I checked everything and started the car so it would warm up a little. Shortly after I started it I heard a fairly loud knocking noise from inside the engine. I was no longer happy!

After investigating it turned out that a lifter failed internally. It was near the large hole in the head between #5 and #7 cylinders so I get real lucky and was able to fish it out with a magnet and drop in the new one. After I disassembled the lifter I found the oil metering plate, directly under the cup that the push rod sits in, was busted up.

I took the remains to my engine builder for an opinion. He said, and hoped, that it was an isolated failure. For the season it ran great as before, I was happy again.

This year I made it to the 2nd or 3rd ride and the same thing happened, but at a different cylinder. I removed the intake and lifters, disassembled them and found wear on the metering plates on all of them. Some worse than others. In the attached pic the plates are lined up, left to right, cylinders #1-5 The failed one is obvious and so is the wear on the rest of them. The one to the extreme right, #5 intake, is the one I replaced last year. While not as bad, wear can be seen after only a season, a season I didn't use the car as much thanks to my new GS : )

Anyone ever seen this before?? Any ideas what could cause this besides poor quality parts? I'm open to the idea that I did something wrong but I don't know what I could have done. Oh BTW, no hot rod parts. It's a stock grind speed pro cam and I used what I was told were high quality USA made lifters, nothing fancy though. My engine builder prefers to use whatever he can that is still made here. Ideas???
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[Michael G.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

I'll through out a 'best guess'.....too much valve spring pressure may be a contributing factor as to why the premature lifter failure. Others will have opinions as to why the failure however you may want to inquire what type springs were used and their specs.

[Duke W.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

The first task is a complete valve train parts audit. You said "stock grind Speed Pro cam". What's the part number? Federal Mogul manufacturers many different cams for big blocks.

...same with the lifters, pushrods, and valve springs - manufacturer and part number. Once you have the valve spring part numbers, the specs should be attainable.

What brand, name, viscosity range, and API service category oil are you using?

Duke

[Jack H.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

Could it be as simple as the valvetrain just adjusted too tight???

[Tom L.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

Cam is a CS1093M. Pushrods are stock (original to the engine?) standard length, they were checked for proper geometry once the heads were installed and were OK. Valve springs were checked for proper seat pressure as per the service manual and re-used. Lifters are Hy-Lift Johnson B0187. When adjusting the valves lifter was on the base circle (Exhaust was adjusted when the intake valve was closing, intake done when the exhaust was beginning to open). Once pushrods had a bit of resistance the nut was tightened 3/4 turn.

Hope this helps.

[Duke W.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

I'm not familiar with the lifter brand, but my understanding is that there are only two or maybe even only one manufacturer for vintage Chevy engine lifters.

Big block lifters are the same as small blocks, but since the big block valve train is heavier and has much higher rate/force valve springs the lifters are more heavily loaded in a big block.

Your valve springs should be the second design dual spring with integral umbrella valve seal, and IMO they are okay to reuse.

It's okay to reuse pushrods/rockers if they pass inspection for exess wear or galling, but they should be maintained and reinstalled as matched sets, preferably in the same location. That way the only newly mating surfaces are the pushrod/lifter, and wear at this location is not common because there is very little movement between these mating surfaces.

Do the lifter faces or cam lobes show any evidence of excessive wear? What about evidence of binding? Look for evidence of galling on the rocker studs and edges of the rocker slots. All valvetrain components should be carefully inspected. Since most of the parts are original, I recommend only 1/2 turn down from zero lash that you determine by wiggling the pushrod up and down until you feel no clearance.

Per my last post, what engine oil are you using?

I also suggest you contact the lifter vendor, report your problem, send them the photos and try to determine if their lifters are experiencing simliar high wear and failure rate, but they may not be forthright with you. The part may have not been properly heat treated to attain design hardness. Usually these kind of manufacturing mistakes apply to production lots, not just a few random pieces.

In this case where you have experienced multiple failures with the same parts, leave no stone unturned in your quest to find the cause or it may well happen again, and the lifters are the number one suspect.

For now all I can suggest is to install a new set of Federal Mogul lifters. Use moly assembly lube and CJ-4 oil with a bottle of EOS and leave the oil in for about 1000 miles, but change the filter and top off the oil at 100-200 miles.


Duke

[Domenic T.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

Tom,
I have had the valve spring compress till all the coils touched years ago and the litters lived but I broke a spring. I had to take the shim out that was under the spring.
I adjust using the #1 & 6 that is in the book. Many may disagree but I only turn the nut 1/4 turn after I get all the play out of the pushrod.
Never ever seen a lifter fail that way. I would roll the pushrods on a piece of glass to see if they suffered a bind between the lifter and spring. If they have a slight bend that will give you a clue that things are tight, spring travel or adjustment.

DOM

[Tom L.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

Forgot the oil part. I'm using 15w-40 Rotella. The springs are dual springs as you noted. Each spring was tested for rate then shimmed individually rather than shimming them all the same which I hear is common. Lifter faces look fine. I used a new razor blade as a straight edge to check that they are convex, all were. Rockers were installed by the previous owner, approx 8 years or so. They are roller tip type. I know they don't do much but figured they wouldn't do harm since they were in nice shape. And they were kept in pairs when disassembled.

I'll look for coil bind and give the push rods a roll. just for clarification, what is EOS?

Thanks again!

[Jack H.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

EOS is a break-in lubricant supplement.
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[Joe R.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

EOS is a break-in lubricant supplement.
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Jack,

To add to what you said, Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) is ZDDP rich. It is good for breaking in a new cam and lifters.

Joe

[Joe C.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

In 2004, Hylift-Johnson Lifters was purchased as a division of TopLine Automotive Engineering. The previous Hylift O.E. lines that were in Zeeland, MI have now been relocated to the Muskegon plant. These high quality flat mechanical tappets, lash adjusters, buckets and encapsulated hydraulic roller lifters are being produced by the original Hylift machines and team. The same people that brought you “The Beautiful Lifter” are back manufacturing with precision and a dedication to quality that has not been seen in the lifter business for quite a few years. We feel the real value is not in the equipment or the plant but with the employees who have over 600 years of Hylift experience. Topline Hylift Johnson will continue its historical way of going to market by traditional means of distribution through a select group of customers.

[Tom L.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

Got it I used an EOS on cam beak-in initially, guess I'll use it again once I move forward.

The little write up that Joe posted is the reason my engine builder has been using the., hopefully it's not a smoke screen. I tried calling them but their tech guy wants a message left so he can call back. I haven't been stationary so no feedback.

I checked the push rods and they seem to roll fine. Also I looked at the springs, there is no indication on them that they are going into coil bind but I'll have to check once everything is back together.

Duke is there a specific Federal Mogul number you suggest or is there only one, I haven't checked.

Thanks all!

[Joe L.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

I'm not familiar with the lifter brand, but my understanding is that there are only two or maybe even only one manufacturer for vintage Chevy engine lifters.


Duke

Duke------


To my knowledge there were only 2 actual manufacturers of flat tappet lifters------Johnson and the AC Division of General Motors. I don't know what's become of the AC lifter manufacturing operations. So, as far as I know, Johnson is the only current manufacturer of flat tappet lifters. As far as I know, Federal-Mogul brand lifters are actually manufactured by Johnson but I'm not 100% sure.

Some of the "small-time", specialty lifter sources like Rhoades, Comp Cams, etc. may manufacture their own lifters, though

[Joe C.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

Duke------


To my knowledge there were only 2 actual manufacturers of flat tappet lifters------Johnson and the AC Division of General Motors. I don't know what's become of the AC lifter manufacturing operations. So, as far as I know, Johnson is the only current manufacturer of flat tappet lifters. As far as I know, Federal-Mogul brand lifters are actually manufactured by Johnson but I'm not 100% sure.

Some of the "small-time", specialty lifter sources like Rhoades, Comp Cams, etc. may manufacture their own lifters, though

....and then there are these:

http://www.scorpioncheckout.com/aboutus.asp

[Duke W.]

Re: Internal lifter failure??

I've been working with / on Chev engines for 40 years. I've never seen a lifter wear or fail like that. I think that batch of little discs wasn't heat treated properly. It's nothing you did wrong, and it's not the oil or break-in procedure. Your lifters had to have come out of a bad batch. Get in touch with the lifter tech guy. If your honest, and they are too, one would hope he'll admit they had a problem at one time, and that will confirm that it isn't anything you did. I don't see how it can be. Not on all 16.

Second thought and observation. I'm surprised Duke hasn't mentioned this. You shouldn't put new flat-tappet lifters on a previously-run cam. It's Russian Roulette as far as reliability. I've changed one lifter in an engine and gotten away with it, and other times I haven't. The lobe went flat in just a few running hours. To change all 16 lifters on a previously run cam? No way. The risk is that if you DO loose a lobe or two, the failure creates a TON of metal that ends up going through the engine. Yes, it's more time and expense to change the cam too, but if you don't and loose a lobe, you have to then change the cam anyway, AND all the brand new lifters you just put in. And you may have to roll bearings in to it too because they got scarred-up from all the debris circulating in the oil.

If you're replacing all the lifters, which looks like it's a given, replace the cam too. Follow the cam manufacturers recommendations for break-in. And of course add the can of EOS.

.02

...glad you mentioned this. I know there is a rule of thumb either don't install used lifters on a new cam or don't install new lifters on a used cam, but I wasn't sure which way it goes.

The Sealed Power hydraulic lifter part number from my old Speed Pro catalog is VL66RH, so check that this number hasn't changed. It applies to both big and small blocks.

Crane also offers hydraulic lifters, but I don't know if they manufacture or purchase them for resale.

So, Tom you need to keep at this. Determine the actual lifter manufacturing source and then find out if those internal parts were improperly heat treated or otherwise not manufactured properly, and I'm sure we'll all want to hear the final story.

Duke