Yet another "whats a '67 worth" question

[Mark Limbert]

First a quick intro...I am "new" to C2 Corvettes and just joined the NCRS. After 20 years of cars, trucks, motorcycles, and other machines I have turned another corner and here I am in Corvette-Land. I think the NCRS was invented for guys like me that LOVE to research, study, and learn. I have been on human vacuum for C2 information these past few weeks and have studied the current market (late '70s market too, wish I had money and insight back then!). My NCRS library has been ordered and I am glued to the front window awaiting any signs of the delivery truck!

Now for the question. I have come across a few vintage 1967 big block wrecks for sale and have been taking them apart on paper to calculate what I think the cars might sell for if repaired in order to assess what they are worth as they sit. I'd like to hear what others more experienced than I have to say. Yes, I realize I am asking for a virtual estimate based on little detail.

Scenario:
1967 Corvette coupe, 427 400hp, 4spd, order sheet, correct type but not matching motor, a couple basic options (radio or power brake type things). Front end hit so lets say they would need all body panels forward of the firewall and related machanicals (radiator type items).

Thank you for your input!

[Mark Limbert]

Re: Yet another "whats a '67 worth" question

I forgot to note that the "scenario car" would be a good original garaged car from the firewall back. Would likely need a full going through on the mechanicals.

[Patrick H.]

Less than what he'll sell it for.

Mark,

Welcome to the club! First of all, join your local NCRS chapter, read all those books you're ordering three times, and attend absolutely every Corvette function that you can. Spend time looking at cars, and learning the good, the bad and the ugly as it relates to Corvettes.

For the most part, the cost of restoration plus the cost of purchasing a car will run you more than the market value. This is even true of 1967 big blocks, especially once you factor in the decrease in value from replacement block and replacement front fiberglass. In addition, virtually everyone is overly optimistic in estimating repair costs. Go ahead and give it a try, and then double or triple your numbers. You'll then be close.

The best thing anyone can do is to buy the absolute best condition Corvette you can afford. It will save you untold amounts of money along the way. Buying basket cases, especially as your first car, usually ends up as a disaster.

I know that this sounds disappointing, and you probably won't listen to me. Everyone has to make their mistakes in the Corvette world, and I've made mine too. But, I'd rather buy a pristine or unmolested small block that needed nothing than a big block that needed work. I'll be a lot happier in the end.

I think many of us have seen the car you are describing, assuming it's the same one on the Internet. There's a reason it's been for sale for quite a while.

Good luck! Feel free to ask more.

Patrick

[Mark Limbert]

Re: Less than what he'll sell it for.

Patrick,

I think you and I are on the same page. I've been around cars long enough at a deep level and know all too well the optimism that most sellers have, how much they downplay "little things" like wrong engines, dates, numbers, body panels, etc. I also use a similar formula for calculating restoration costs...find real and similar repair costs for that SPECIFIC vehicle and at they very least double it. What anyone else would do to "restore" a machine and what I typically do are VERY different. And also as you stated, the cost of restoration versus buying a finished car is usually a losing battle.

As for a specific car, I am looking to learn as much as possible about the market and my posted "scenario" was not referring to a specific car. I'm at the point in life where I feel that there is always another car and not to get fixated (blinded)upon one. I have run across several 67 big block wrecks and also customized cars with flares and other modifications which put them in a similar class in my book regarding the amount (and cost) of repairs they would require to be put back to original.

So, what is a resonable current market value on a restorable 1967 427 coupe, 1967 427 convertible needing nose work and a full going through as stated in my original post?

-Mark

[John Pickens]

Re: Less than what he'll sell it for.

Go to price calculator through corvettemagazine.com. Very handy and accurate
estimates. I believe you can also search for it through Google.com

[Rich G.]

Re: Yet another "whats a '67 worth" question

Mark

Like you, I am new to this but also like you I have experience in another facet of "special vehicle ownership". Mine was and is older airplanes. Rule number one is you NEVER get your money out. As others have said, buy the best you can justify and do the upgrades YOU want. Enjoy what you have and when you sell it down the road inflation will allow you to tell your wife you sold it for more than you paid for it.

When I started looking last Spring I would show my friend who has several C2's all the ads and ask "why is this one $15K more than that one when they are both 'numbers matching' small blocks?" He said when you pay 10 thousand more for a car, you usually get more than 10 thousand in a better car. In other words the work that went into a top restoration usually costs more than the market will allow the car to sell for. I'm pretty sure the same goes for airplanes, boats, hot rods, motorcycles etc.

Rich Giannotti #38594

[Mark Limbert]

$?

So, what is a reasonable current market value on a restorable 1967 427 coupe or 1967 427 convertible needing nose work and a full going through as stated in my original post?

I can't believe there isn't anyone out there with their eye on the 1967 market that has input on this question.

-Mark

[Mark Limbert]

Re: Less than what he'll sell it for.

I've used the Corvette Magazine calculator. Its fun but no "guide" I've ever seen for collector vehicles is ever very accurate. It shows this "scenario car" as being worth $41,000.

I've found that market value is best assessed by making comparisons to recent sales of similar cars. I am working on that to answer my question but was hoping for input on what NCRS members were seeing. I believe others have mentioned that there are only 300 members using this forum out of 14,000 members total.......

[G B.]

Watch out for the kinky stuff

Many of the old Corvettes for sale these days have something kinky about them that you have to look hard to find. I'm talking about bad title paperwork, reproduction or state issued VIN tags, replacement frames, rusty birdcages, or seriously weird prior body damage (e.g. - hit from above by a speeding grand piano). When I try to warn first time buyers about these things, they look at me like I'm crazy. Then they bring home a shiny '67 with a '68 frame.

Tonight a local guy is leaving to purchase his first mid-year. He is pulling a trailer to Maryland, about 16 hours away. He showed me the photos of this '67 Corvette. But he wasn't really interested in my opinion, let alone in asking me to inspect it for him. I'm betting this $35,000 lesson will be an eye opener for him. It's one of those low mile all original fully frame-on restored cars except for blah, blah, blah... In other words, it's a repainted high mile car with a repaired engine and a broken odometer. He says the owner has been very forthcoming with information. Been hit? "Not that I know of." Been rusty? "I've kept it in a heated garage the whole 18 months I've owned it." Overheat with that cheap copper radiator? "No, that's a big block radiator in the factory (small block) core support." History? "Yeah, I bought it from a used car dealer in another state." Oh boy.

I used to dive in front of the gun when people tried to shoot themselves in the automotive foot. I'm too old to do that now. Not a one of them learned anything from it anyway. Most just recocked the gun and then shot their other foot.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Watch out for the kinky stuff

Jerry,

You've got it right. I even hesitated to place my initial post, because it seems that no matter how much advice you can give, the people asking don't listen anyway. You and I usually see eye-to-eye. Not bad for a guy who "sort of" works.

I'll give you my 100% honest opinion on the car: if he gives it to you for free, you might make out OK. Shy of that, forget it. I'm only 34, and despite the amount of time I've got left in life (hopefully) and the fun I have working on cars, I'll never do one like that. Life's still too short.

My other (incredibly accurate) rule of Corvettes and Corvette repair: any money you pay someone else to work on your car should be considered a gift to their livelihood. In other words, it's money you'll never see back when you sell the car. I'm usually not off by much on this calculation either.

Oh well.

Patrick

[Mark Limbert]

Re: Watch out for the kinky stuff

I thank all that have responded and the many words of wisdom. They are as if I said them myself.

None of you need worry that as Patrick said, "you probably won't listen to me". I also am not wowed by shiny paint but am more interested in good cars that have histories I can detect through my trained eyes.

Part of learning involves seeing all facets of the topic. Knowing the "junk" tells a lot about the "gold". I've found that my time spent learning about parts (and parts cars) explains a lot about the different perceptions of "perfect".

-Mark

[G B.]

Range of prices

Assuming there is nothing kinky about the '67 coupe in your first post, I think it might actually sell for $8,000 to $15,000. The price will vary quite a bit with the location of the car, personality of the seller (surly like me?), condition of the interior, the original exterior color, and the amount of big block documentation available. I assume the document you've seen is a real tank sticker. Believe it or not, "aged" tank stickers are offered for sale on the internet by a guy who sees nothing wrong with his "business".

People pay much more for a '67 big block than any other wrecked Corvette. If the car was a '64 coupe with a small block, the seller would be doing great to get half that amount for it.

By the way, resale price estimates such as mine that are based on a three sentence text description without photos are absolutely meaningless.

[Clem Z.]

buy one that runs

mark, if this is your first venture into the "corvette lifestyle" my advice is buy one that runs because nothing will sour you quicker than having a corvette that you can not drive. i bet most people that restore corvettes for "fun" not for "profit" have a running corvette to use while they work on the other. JMHO

[Mark Limbert]

Re: buy one that runs

As I stated several times in this thread, there is no car. This was a hypothetical scenario. I was just looking for input on what others had seen for pricing in the project car market.

Yes, I know it was a loaded question and I, like those that have responded, know better than to state a figure without stern disclaimer that one person's perception of condition and another person's perception of condition are usually two very different things.

Please excuse me for having a weak moment late at night and throwing caution to the wind when I decided to throw this question out there. Guess I really didn't think I would get anything more than advice anyway considering it was a loaded question. I'll stick to technical questions in the future.

Thanks again,
Mark

PS: there was and is no car or sticker....I think I mentioned that.

[Clem Z.]

consider it a hypothetical answer. *NM*