R-414b....I'm SO confused.

[Lonnie Wiggins]

Such as, why hasn't the shop which is currently working on the A/C on my '69 L68 told me about this stuff, instead of charging me Sheriff of Notingham prices for R-12?

I saw some earlier references - I hadn't ever heard of it.

Found this link: http://www.johnstonesupplysd.com/hotshots.html

Is this stuff as easy as it seems for 'vette applications?

Anyone have any long term experience with it?

[John M.]

Re: R-414b....I'm SO confused.

The reason that your shop has not told you about it is that it is illegal to use it in an automobile. There are a number of drop-in replacement R-12 refrigerants that are widely used in the industry, which because of the way the laws are structured, will never be allowed to be used in automotive A/C. In order for a refrigerant to be used as a bridge refrigerant to replace R-12, The manufacturer must submit it for approval and spend a substantial amount of money to obtain approval. The big money is behind R134a as the only automotive refrigerant of choice for the future, so to submit other refrigerants would only dilute the sales of R134a. There are a number of refrigerants that are used in the commercial refrigeration business that are excellent replacements for R-12, including R414b, and R409. The drop-in refrigerants generally do not have the same problems with capacity reduction, oil incompatibility and seal incompatibility. All of the drop-in's are azeotropic blends of existing refrigerants such as R-22 and R502, and are scheduled for phase out as well by 2030, but will serve a useful purpose in commercial refrigerant systems which cost big bucks and would be a great burden to dispose of simply because the refrigerant was not available. That being said, I know personally of many people who have access to commercial refrigerants who use 414 and 409 in their own cars with very good results, even though they stand to lose their certificate if they are caught, as well as risk fines.

[John M.]

Re: R-414b....I'm SO confused.

The reason that your shop has not told you about it is that it is illegal to use it in an automobile. There are a number of drop-in replacement R-12 refrigerants that are widely used in the industry, which because of the way the laws are structured, will never be allowed to be used in automotive A/C. In order for a refrigerant to be used as a bridge refrigerant to replace R-12, The manufacturer must submit it for approval and spend a substantial amount of money to obtain approval. The big money is behind R134a as the only automotive refrigerant of choice for the future, so to submit other refrigerants would only dilute the sales of R134a. There are a number of refrigerants that are used in the commercial refrigeration business that are excellent replacements for R-12, including R414b, and R409. The drop-in refrigerants generally do not have the same problems with capacity reduction, oil incompatibility and seal incompatibility. All of the drop-in's are azeotropic blends of existing refrigerants such as R-22 and R502, and are scheduled for phase out as well by 2030, but will serve a useful purpose in commercial refrigerant systems which cost big bucks and would be a great burden to dispose of simply because the refrigerant was not available. That being said, I know personally of many people who have access to commercial refrigerants who use 414 and 409 in their own cars with very good results, even though they stand to lose their certificate if they are caught, as well as risk fines.

[John M.]

Correction

I mispoke, R414b is now listed as a SNAP bridge refrigerant by the EPA and may be used to replace R-12 in automotive applications. It is one of the few which the manufacturer has seen enough possible profits to bother with the certification process. It is also one of the few which can be purchased in small disposable cans, as most of the others are meant for commercial use only and are in nothing smaller than 30lb cylinders. You can find more info on it at http://www.icorinternational.com/hotshot/hotinst.html John

[John M.]

Correction

I mispoke, R414b is now listed as a SNAP bridge refrigerant by the EPA and may be used to replace R-12 in automotive applications. It is one of the few which the manufacturer has seen enough possible profits to bother with the certification process. It is also one of the few which can be purchased in small disposable cans, as most of the others are meant for commercial use only and are in nothing smaller than 30lb cylinders. You can find more info on it at http://www.icorinternational.com/hotshot/hotinst.html John

[Clem Z.]

Re: Correction

i was going to post that most of the big chain auto repair shops have been using R414B for several years but your correction beat me to it.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Correction

i was going to post that most of the big chain auto repair shops have been using R414B for several years but your correction beat me to it.

[David D.]

Re: Gauges for R414B

Which gauge set (R12 or 134A) is used to check pressures with R414B? TIA. Dave

[David D.]

Re: Gauges for R414B

Which gauge set (R12 or 134A) is used to check pressures with R414B? TIA. Dave

[Tom Freeman]

Re: R-414b....I'm SO confused.

Lonnie,
Check out these two EPA web sites for more info:

http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/snap/macssubs.html

http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/snap/lists/mvacs.html

Why have they not told you about 414b? The ac shops have to have a complete set of tools for each type of refergent they work with. So most go with only the two major ones, R12 and 134a. If they add another refregrent, they have to add another set of guages, storage tank, recovery equipment, etc, etc. Each refregrent has its own specialized fittings (to keep the refregrents from being mixed) so the equipemnt is not interchangable.

So there are a lot of refregrents they could use but the cost of equipment keeps them to servicing only the two major ones.

tom...




The '73 Spot

[Tom Freeman]

Re: R-414b....I'm SO confused.

Lonnie,
Check out these two EPA web sites for more info:

http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/snap/macssubs.html

http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/snap/lists/mvacs.html

Why have they not told you about 414b? The ac shops have to have a complete set of tools for each type of refergent they work with. So most go with only the two major ones, R12 and 134a. If they add another refregrent, they have to add another set of guages, storage tank, recovery equipment, etc, etc. Each refregrent has its own specialized fittings (to keep the refregrents from being mixed) so the equipemnt is not interchangable.

So there are a lot of refregrents they could use but the cost of equipment keeps them to servicing only the two major ones.

tom...




The '73 Spot

[Christopher R.]

Re: Gauges for R414B

Pressure is pressure. It doesn't care what the gas is. Use any gauges.

Now, the recommended pressures for R-12 versus an alternative refrigerant may be different, but that's something else. The alternative refrigerant you're using should tell you what's recommended.

[Christopher R.]

Re: Gauges for R414B

Pressure is pressure. It doesn't care what the gas is. Use any gauges.

Now, the recommended pressures for R-12 versus an alternative refrigerant may be different, but that's something else. The alternative refrigerant you're using should tell you what's recommended.

[Lonnie Wiggins]

Barrier hose?

Thanks for the responses. They've been very helpful and now I know some of the questions to ask if I decide to seek out a shop that can do the swap.

However, one of the links refers to "barrier hoses". Do the A/C hoses normally found on our systems meet this requirement, or are we possibly talking about a hose change?

Or, do shops even consider them when doing a system charge?

Thanks.

[Lonnie Wiggins]

Barrier hose?

Thanks for the responses. They've been very helpful and now I know some of the questions to ask if I decide to seek out a shop that can do the swap.

However, one of the links refers to "barrier hoses". Do the A/C hoses normally found on our systems meet this requirement, or are we possibly talking about a hose change?

Or, do shops even consider them when doing a system charge?

Thanks.