Reply Re CE Engines

[Gary Bishop]

Jeff: I am not saying that verified CE blocks should not be used with a minor point deduction but what it could lead to is someone not wanting to or able to find a correct dated block installing a later dated block and stamping it CE.

There are ways to put look alike grooves on blocks after decking and also the use of photo electric stamps made to appear with the similar numbers and letters of originals.

There are not enough qualified Judges at all Meets to know and tell the difference of an original and a copy. I include myself as a level 17 Master Judge.

You may be honest but there a lot of others using NCRS judging criteria to make big bucks and deceive future enthusiasts.

[Jeff]

Re: Reply Re CE Engines

Gary,

I think you've gotten turned around a bit here. I am not a proponent of restamping, or CE engines (or repro parts for that matter). I was just adddressing your post and saying that you should be consistent in what you recognize.

If repro parts are ok (and I don't think they are) then what is wrong with reproing an engine assembly?

If restamping is dishonest then why would repainting be honest?

As far as whether or not folks use NCRS awards to commit fraud, so what? You are trying to serve too many masters when you try to factor into judging standards what others may or may not do, at some later date, with any award they may receive. You seem to be advocating watered down specs for what is an original car just to make sure someone doesn't profit unfairly at some later date.

This is supposed to be about cars, not about ethics or policing. We're all big boys here. Anyone who can afford to get ripped off on a fake ZL1 (no one's getting stabbed on fake 250/automs) or the like can afford to arm himself with sufficient knowledge, beforehand, or a vicious enough lawyer, after the fact, to protect his own interests. That's not the NCRs's job or a legitimate agenda for judging standards.

Trying to predict what sort of standards will give folks a disinsentive to commit fraud in order to protect wealthy (no one is buying cars with the rent money) consumers' wholly optional purchases is way too ambitious and has no place in determining what configuration cars were in when they rolled off the assembly line.

The objective is not to have so many categories that everyone has a 100pt car in one manner or another ("the I'm OK, you're OK, you car's cool, so's mine, let's not have anyone ever suffer the shame or rejection of a deduct" method of judging). The idea, as I see, it is to determine what is factory original, reward that and penalize everything else.

Regards,

JP

[Everett Ogilvie]

Re: Reply Re CE Engines

This is getting interesting. (This subject always is) Don't we really have 2 main judging categories?

1) Flight judging seems to be completely restored cars, in new condition. Aren't most of these cars filled to the brim with repro parts? And, if they are, don't we give full credit for those parts if they are configured correctly (a good copy of an original type part), and installed correctly? So, what is the difference between a "correct repro engine assembly" and a "correct repro tire/horn/seat cover/trim tag/wheel/bolt", etc. etc.?

2) The "other" judging areas (Bowtie, etc.) where the cars, or a majority of the parts on the car, are represented as ORIGINAL. Here, originality is everything, and our experts are trusted to know the difference.

Based on the type of judging, repro is either acceptable, or not. Right? As time passes and original unrestored cars become more scarce, restored cars constructed of mostly repro parts will be more and more common. Our guidelines will need to reflect this.

The earlier posting comment about this being about cars, not about policing is a good one. Personally I think both types of cars, original unrestored, and fully restored, have value.

Everett

[Brandon K.]

Levels of Judging

Please excuse my ignorance, but could someone please explain the different levels of judging (ie "Level 17 master judge") and how one becomes a master judge and attains such levels? I've never come across any information on this in the NCRS literature. Thanks.

[Bill Clupper]

Re: Levels of Judging

Information on the Master Judging program is contained in the judging reference manual, and has been reviewed in past issues of the "Restorer", usually in the Judging chairman's message to the membership.. The Judging recognition process was started when Dennis Clark was judging chairman, to address a number of issues in the judging arena, including providing some recognition to members who volunteered to help in the judging arena, and also to encourage more members to become involved in the judging process. Each time a judge signs onto the judging team leader's record sheet at a judged event, the work performed by that judge is recorded in a database. Points are awarded on the basis of the activity being performed, as well as the level of the meet involved (Chapter, Regional, National). Points are also awarded for attending judging schools. At 100 points, you are awarded the recognition of "Master Judge", with Hat and Pin. Additional points will continue to accrue, with some judges having joined the "200 club" and beyond. More details are available in the reference manual, but that's a brief overview.

[Jack H.]

Re: Reply Re CE Engines

Amen, Jeff/Everett. Flight and Certification categories are aimed at restored cars. As such, it CANNOT be original. Cars are only original once. These categories of the hobby are based on appearance judging, not destructive testing (we don't but magnaflux machines on the judging field to look for numbers under numbers).

While many cars WILL/DO have a lot of blood sweat and tears as well as a significant count of factory original parts on them to get top honors, they're just that -- a deplosion of entropy made from a collection of individual parts (new and old) that did NOT ship from the factory on that car originally but appear close enough that they 'could' have.

Much ado is made of one part (the block). But, in my opinion it's just that, another part. When you add up the myriad of other parts that bear dates/legends, they pale the block in time, effort, cost. But, it's not easy for folks to understand 'numbers matching' vs. 'all numbers matching' vs. factory original -- this requires a significant investment in personal education. So, just picking on one (albeit important) part helps make the world nicely black and white.

The world isn't black and white. It's a very rich mixture of grey tones. The same goes for people. So, while we can discuss the merits of this or that, we will NEVER arrive at a consensus for morales/ethics and we are forced to fall back on the published NCRS rules we have that were obtained through SIGNICANT blood sweat and tears of knowledgeable VOLUNTEER contributors.

I try to look back at what was done in the past and understand it before I jump to critize. Those who went before us weren't stupid and they did what they did for reasons of logic and politics (among other things). Perhaps there's still merit in the existing system....

[Jeff]

Re: Reply Re CE Engines

Jack,

Not quite sure what side of the issue you're on here but I am sure that no one was criticizing anyone. We were simply discussing the merits and demerits of the existing and (potentially) proposed systems, in a sane and civil manner.

Certainly, no indictment of "those who came before" and probably the same process (a bunch of car guys whackin' it) those folks engaged in to arrive at the current state of the art and the same process that will, eventually, move the needle once again.

JP

[Jack H.]

Re: Reply Re CE Engines

Stand by what I said. (1) Both side of the issue have merit. (2) The world's not a black & white place. (3) There's a difference between Flight and Bowtie judging. (4) It's easy to overlook the cost/effort of making everything numbers matching vs. picking on 1/2 key components of the car (block/frame). (5) Taking a firm position one way or the other neglects the history of how we got to where we are (best in the business) and the pain/agony of making change in a dynamic, political, human environment. Wasn't comin' down on anyone. Just airin' my views.