rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

[Michael F.]

have they stopped using zinc and phosporus now, what to use in our old flat tappet motors?????????????????

[Duke W.]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

No, do some searching on this forum to find out about the CJ-4 specification, or google API 1509 and find out for yourself directly from the source.

Internet blogs are full of misinformation and BS.

Duke

[Roger S.]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

Info from the Shell Answer Man about the wear additives in Rotella the old CI-4 verus the new CJ-4 spec's.
He, actually a she, said

CI-4 CJ-4
Zinc............... 1390 ppm.......1210 ppm

Phospherous.........1265 ppm.......1110 ppm

About 12% lower for the new oil, but much more than the regular car SM spec oil.

Roger

[John D.]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

The big thing is to use a good engine oil supplement and cam lube. There are at least 1000 posts on this subject in the archives. JD

[Duke W.]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

An oil supplement like GM EOS or "cam lube" is only for breakin, but with an OE cam and springs, it's not absolutely necessary. (GM didn't use either for new engines). After new engine breakin, CJ-4 oil is all that's necessary.

Duke

[John D.]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

What brand do you suggest Duke??? JD

[Duke W.]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

As you know I have no brand preference and don't recommend specific brands. The only important buying factors are API service category, viscosty, and price. I buy whatever API service category CI-4 or CJ-4 in SAE grade 15W-40 is least expensive at the time of purchase.

Duke

[Michael F.]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

thanks duke and everyone else, glad that is cleaned up.

[Michael F.]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

thanks duke and everyone else, glad that is cleaned up.

[Doug Flaten]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

Below, I pasted a Shell response from another forum. It states the same as a prior post about a zinc content of 1200 ppm. But it also states that this applies to Shell Rotella T multigrades that carry both the CJ and SM rating. I noticed on the Shell website that not all oil grades carry both the CJ and SM rating. Since SM is showing up on some diesel oils now, it was causing confusion.
Doug

With the introduction a couple of years ago of ILSAC specification GF-4
and API specification SM for gasoline-only engine oils, the amount of
phosphorous in the oil had to be reduced to prolong the life of
catalytic converters. Zinc-based anti-wear compounds, which also
contain phosphorous, were reduced as well. These zinc compounds work
well to protect flat tappet engines from excessive wear, so the modern
gasoline-only engine oils are not as effective in this regard as they
once were.

Diesel engine oils don't suffer from the same requirements to protect
catalytic converters, so the amount of zinc-based anti-wear additives
remained high. Products like Shell Rotella T Oils, which also carry API
S-series licenses for gasoline engines, have found favor for flat tappet
engines.

There has been a recent change to the API specification required for
oils used in 2007 big rig diesel engines to reduce particulate
emissions, API CJ-4, and that oil does also carry an API SM rating. As
a result, the zinc content in Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oils has been
reduced slightly from about 1400 ppm to about 1200 ppm. Even at these
slightly decreased levels, Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oils still have at
least 50% more of these anti-wear additives as most current
gasoline-only engine oils. These levels of zinc have historically
offered good protection in flat tappet applications.

Thank you for your interest in Shell Rotella Products!

Regards,
Edward Calcote
Staff Chemist, Shell Lubricants US Technical Information Center

http://www.rotella.com

[Doug Flaten]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

Below, I pasted a Shell response from another forum. It states the same as a prior post about a zinc content of 1200 ppm. But it also states that this applies to Shell Rotella T multigrades that carry both the CJ and SM rating. I noticed on the Shell website that not all oil grades carry both the CJ and SM rating. Since SM is showing up on some diesel oils now, it was causing confusion.
Doug

With the introduction a couple of years ago of ILSAC specification GF-4
and API specification SM for gasoline-only engine oils, the amount of
phosphorous in the oil had to be reduced to prolong the life of
catalytic converters. Zinc-based anti-wear compounds, which also
contain phosphorous, were reduced as well. These zinc compounds work
well to protect flat tappet engines from excessive wear, so the modern
gasoline-only engine oils are not as effective in this regard as they
once were.

Diesel engine oils don't suffer from the same requirements to protect
catalytic converters, so the amount of zinc-based anti-wear additives
remained high. Products like Shell Rotella T Oils, which also carry API
S-series licenses for gasoline engines, have found favor for flat tappet
engines.

There has been a recent change to the API specification required for
oils used in 2007 big rig diesel engines to reduce particulate
emissions, API CJ-4, and that oil does also carry an API SM rating. As
a result, the zinc content in Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oils has been
reduced slightly from about 1400 ppm to about 1200 ppm. Even at these
slightly decreased levels, Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oils still have at
least 50% more of these anti-wear additives as most current
gasoline-only engine oils. These levels of zinc have historically
offered good protection in flat tappet applications.

Thank you for your interest in Shell Rotella Products!

Regards,
Edward Calcote
Staff Chemist, Shell Lubricants US Technical Information Center

http://www.rotella.com

[Duke W.]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

I also explained this in previous postings. The first listed API category is the PRIMARY application, and any oil that carries SM as the FIRST (and primary) category CANNOT carry ANY other service category.

The phosphorous limitation (which places a limit on the ZDDP anti-wear additive)of .08% (800 ppm) for SM oils ONLY applies to those with a winter SAE viscosity grade of 10W or below, so theoretically a 20W-50 SM can have greater than .08% P, but there is no guarantee that this is the case.

The CJ-4 phosophorous limitation is 0.12%, which is the bottom end of the typical concentration range for previous C-category oils.

This is all spelled out in the API 1509 Engine Oil licensing and Certification System document that you can locate (and download) off the Internet after a quick Google search.

Thus, a 15W-40 CJ-4 can also carry SM as a secondary rating because the 15W winter rating exempts it from the .08% phosphorous limitation in the SM specification.

The bottom line is that a 15W-40 CJ-4 is the best commonly available motor oil for vintage engines in typical service, but if you consistently do cold starts below 15 degrees F, use the more expensive 5W-40 CJ-4, which shouldn't carry a SM rating because the winter viscosity rating is below 10W.

The 5W-40s are made primarily from Group II and III base stocks, which have a higher viscosity index than Group I that is the primarly base stock used in 15W-40 along with a little Group II or III to meet the tough anti-oxidation requirements. The 5W-40 can also probably be referred to as "synthetic", but the marketers appear to avoid saying this since "synthetic" is now widely understood as just marketing hype, and commercial operators who are the primary customers for CJ-4 oils prefer facts to hype.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: rotella oil question and flat tappet cams???

I also explained this in previous postings. The first listed API category is the PRIMARY application, and any oil that carries SM as the FIRST (and primary) category CANNOT carry ANY other service category.

The phosphorous limitation (which places a limit on the ZDDP anti-wear additive)of .08% (800 ppm) for SM oils ONLY applies to those with a winter SAE viscosity grade of 10W or below, so theoretically a 20W-50 SM can have greater than .08% P, but there is no guarantee that this is the case.

The CJ-4 phosophorous limitation is 0.12%, which is the bottom end of the typical concentration range for previous C-category oils.

This is all spelled out in the API 1509 Engine Oil licensing and Certification System document that you can locate (and download) off the Internet after a quick Google search.

Thus, a 15W-40 CJ-4 can also carry SM as a secondary rating because the 15W winter rating exempts it from the .08% phosphorous limitation in the SM specification.

The bottom line is that a 15W-40 CJ-4 is the best commonly available motor oil for vintage engines in typical service, but if you consistently do cold starts below 15 degrees F, use the more expensive 5W-40 CJ-4, which shouldn't carry a SM rating because the winter viscosity rating is below 10W.

The 5W-40s are made primarily from Group II and III base stocks, which have a higher viscosity index than Group I that is the primarly base stock used in 15W-40 along with a little Group II or III to meet the tough anti-oxidation requirements. The 5W-40 can also probably be referred to as "synthetic", but the marketers appear to avoid saying this since "synthetic" is now widely understood as just marketing hype, and commercial operators who are the primary customers for CJ-4 oils prefer facts to hype.

Duke