62 Early Vin Tag Help

[Joe S.]

You win some, you lose some

After digesting all this I went out to the shop with a magnifying lense. There is no doubt that not only are there scratch marks which can not be seen in the photo, there is evidence of another vin number under it.

I know the car had been hit pretty bad at some point in the front. It has a replacement nose on it. The frame rail on the drivers side was slightly buckled and they even elongated the holes for the steering box to get it to line up.

My guess is the original column got whacked and somethign happened to the vin number so someone attempted to fake a replacement. It's a shame because everything else is there (Engine, Heads, Exhaust manifolds, intake, carb, tranny, etc.) Whether the owner I purchased it from new this (probably) or it happened in it's early drag racing days who knows.

I'll unfortunately probably put all the original parts including a rebuilt perfectly good early 327/300 up for sale as well as the matching BW-T10 and resto-rod the car with a tube frame and LSx engine.

I appreciate everyones input and desire to come up with a plausible explanation. I guess Dennis was right after all, the Vin tag sucks ;-).

ps: I'd still like to know what the VB was (Vehicle Bureau?) or the shop that did the restamp as was required by law years ago. I guess i'll never know.

[Dennis C.]

Joe... With all the good original parts...

...I would not rush to judgement on which way to go with this car. Mainly, keep in mind that NCRS has no problem with judging a car that has a state issued VIN tag. I have also heard that replacement VIN tags that mimic the original may be available out there... Best Regards, Dennis

[Steven B.]

Re: Joe... With all the good original parts...

I have seen replacement VIN Tags on ebay, for what its worth.

[Jack H.]

Then there's the real Catch-22...

For quite a while, GM had a program to issue replacement VIN tags for cars that'd 'lost' their originals. This involved taking the car to a Chevy dealer and a request being made via the visiting Zone Dealer.

These replacement VIN tags were made in Detroit (NOT at the original producing factory site) and sent to the dealer for installation on the car in question. Expect these tags to 'flunk' every originality test judges are familiar with because they were printed elsewhere.

So, it's quite possible that this/that car has a GM authorized 'reproduction' VIN or Trim tag on it that's actually 'correct'. But, unfortunately NCRS judges based on typical factory production standards and these cars fall outside that windown with the burden of proof being placed on the owner to document/prove...

Obviously, if such a car passed through many subsequent owners after this kind of event, the odds of having 'proof' are slim and none!

[john daly]

Re: Then there's the real Catch-22...

This company has been mentioned on this site before...not sure if they do VIN tags though...

http://www.datatags.com

[Dennis C.]

Jack, I believe you may be incorrect...

...regarding non acceptance of GM re-issued VIN tags & I believe this issue is covered in the JRM with additional qualifying information. DC

[Jack H.]

Well, let's read together...

From the NCRS Judging Reference Manual, Section 2, Rule 1, Model Years Judged, Memebership & Vehicle Identification:

"....The car must have the correct attached, Chevrolet factory Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) plate, or attached valid state-approved replacement ID plate which matches title and/or registration. Should a car appear with a Chevrolet (GM) issued duplicate VIN plate, it must be accompanied with acceptable documentation from the Chevrolet Division of General Motors confirming issuance. Any car appearing without identification as described shall be inelegible for any NCRS judging."

This one sticks in my mind because there was an incident when I was RMC Judging Chairman where an owner brought his car with the VIN tag in a separate envelope repleat with MILES of correspondence between him, the delivering dealer and between the dealer and GM/Chevrolet. Basically, the car arrived at the dealership from the factory WITHOUT a VIN tag!

Through a comedy of errors over several years, attempts to re-issue the VIN tag FINALLY succeeded in the replacement arriving at the dealership. But, the dealer/zone dealer never actually installed the VIN tag!

With an NCRS Regional Director (one who lives locally in the Denver area), looking over my shoulder, I had to recite this rule and REJECT the car for Flight Judging because of the operative phrase 'attached' in the above rule! Instead, of doing a formal Flight Judging of the car, we did an informal 'courtesy' judging (didn't turn in score sheets to NCRS National) and the owner was happy...

But, I think I recited the rule properly when I stated the burden of proof falls on the owner to document a replacement VIN tag. BTW, the same program provided replacement trim tags (one of our RMC members was a Chevy Zone Dealer employee who confirms he personally replaced both VIN and Trim Tags to remedy factory errors).

Such a car would most likely fail the Sinor/Grenning trim tag verification process since the replacement trim tags were wacked out on an Addressograph/Multigraph machine in Detroit vs. the one used in St. Louis. Again, the burden of proof would fall on the owner to document the deviation from typical factory production norms....

[Dennis C.]

OK, Jack, We read it together. I wrote it...

...and put it in the JRM. I restate - if you have a GM re-issued attached VIN tag with appropriate GM documentation (as stated in the JRM), you are good to go. So, what am I missing? Keep in mind, we are not talking Trim Tags. Best, Dennis

[Michael S.]

Re: Then there's the real Catch-22...

I did exactly as described above in obtaining a new VIN tag for a 70 COPO small block convertible (Yes, GM engineering zone number on the build sheet) that lost the original VIN during windshield frame replacement prior to my ownership.

Most folks have never heard of this program but is "was" real and did work. The VIN sent by GM was current (at time of request) production VIN tag with the correct 1970 VIN number. GM also a pair of rosette riviets. I am sure that VIN is still on that car now. I also left the Tenneessee Assigned VIN sticker in the door jamb that also represent the cars correct and original VIN number.

[Jack H.]

Re: OK, Jack, We read it together. I wrote it...

You're missing nothing... We appear to be talking past each other. I said:

(1) Cars with VIN/Trim tags whose appearance differs from typical factory production norms can have judging problems.

(2) There was a GM program to provide replacement tags.

(3) These tags may differ from the factory original.

(4) When an aspect of a given car differs from typical factory production, the burden of proof falls on the owner.

You questioned me. I recited the VIN tag rule. Just as I said, it requires the owner to provide proof (the appropriate GM/Chevy documentation). There's no disagreement in my view other than what aspect of what I'd posted you were having trouble with, Dennis...

Bottom line, we recited club rules in this area for those unfamiliar with them. Now, back to the original thread, we've got an early '62 car with what the owner thinks might be a questionable VIN tag. He has no evidence/proof to support its factory originality or its GM/Chevy replacement authenticity. What does he do if his VIN tag authenticity is questioned?