on the ZDDP levels for the 2007 Rotella T 15-40 oil. Spec on bottle states it's CI4 Plus rated. Tried to locate MSDS and checked the Shell forums but no joy. Just wondering if the levels decreased from 2006 which were .140 Zinc and .130 Phosphorous. This is in reference to my new '57 283 flat tappet cam engine. Am using GM EOS along with the Rotella T. Apologize if this information's in the archives, I did a search and didn't find anything relating to the 2007 reformulation, but did find lots of good stuff about ZDDP decreasing in regular oils. Appreciate all of the oil analysis information Duke's provided, it has been invaluable. Thanks in advance, Gary....
-
NCRS Texas Chapter
https://www.ncrstexas.org/
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61565408483631 -
Re: 2007 Rotella T ZDDP levels - can't find info
Most of the oil analyses you find on the web are provided by individuals who have oil analyzed. The OEs don't always divulge the analysis.
If the oil is rated CI-4 or CI-4 Plus the Zn content is typically about 0.12% (and remember than 0.10% = 1000 ppm)
If the oil is rated CJ-4 (even if the rating includes CI-4)the Zn content is about 0.10 percent and SM is .08% or less.
Since most consumer oriented retail outlets are replacing CI-4 with CJ-4 you should look around for a truck parts supply house as they are likely to continue carrying CI-4. It's still being made, but distribution may not be wide.
I recently posted this link that has Zn and P analyses for both CI-4 and CJ-4 Rotella, but you DON'T have to buy Rotella. It's just one brand. I buy by API rating and price, not brand.
Even if you decide to use easily available CJ-4 it is a MUCH BETTER oil than these engines lived with for most of their lives.
I was recently discussing an engine rebuild with a member and asked what valve springs were installed. The cam lobes are OE. It turns out that the installed springs were Comp Cams 981 even though he had requested OE replacements. The Comp Cams 981 has typical seat force of 105 pounds and a rate of 423 lb/in!!!
This is a formula for wiping cam lobes. The OE spring is about 80 pounds at the seat with a rate of 267 lb/in, and with careful attention to valve spring installed height the expected valvetrain limiting speed is about 6500.
The Comp Cams 981 is even stiffer than the 3927142 GM spring that was designed for the 3927140 "first design" racing cam. The 142 has about the same seat force, but a rate of "only" 358 lb/in. The 140 cam and 142 spring are good for 8000 revs.
You have to watch these "engine builders" like a hawk. They tend to ignore what you ask for and do it their way no matter what including installing gorilla springs even with OE cam lobes.
Another example is a vintage racer who was suffering broken rocker arms. He was using a relatively mild aftermarket mechanical lifter cam and never revved the engine over 6500. It turns out his "engine builder" selected valve springs by going to the local hot rod shop and asking for the "stiffest valve spring" they had. He had no idea what the seat force and rate was, nor did he know what the cam lobes required to achieve 6500.
I've seen a lot of situations like this were an engine was assembled with a lot of expensive aftermarket parts, but the configuration had ZERO system engineering content! They were just a bunch of non-synergic parts bolted together, and the engine either didn't run well, or had poor reliability, or both!
I've proved through analysis and engine testing that the SB OE mechanical lifter lobes and springs, with careful attention to spring installed height, will rev to 7200. Analysis says the SB OE hydraulic lifter lobes (INCLUDING the lobes on the 300 HP cam) will go to about 6500 and testing will eventually find the actual number.
Use CJ-4 or CI-4 oil, OE cam lobes, and OE springs, and you will not have valvetrain problems, and the engine will rev to the head choke point even with massaged heads.
Duke -
Re: 2007 Rotella T ZDDP levels - can't find info
Gary, Walmart has various brands of the diesel oil. Notice I didn't mention any brand names. I noticed that Walmart had 10W-30 and also 15W-40. A local gas station only had the thicker stuff. Comes in gallons or qts. The EOS only comes in small bottles now. My 63 engine was broken in with diesel oil. Ran it for 1/2 hr and then changed it and the filter. That's all I will ever run in it. Stocked up 1-1/2 ago cause everything I find that I like or is good disappears fast. JohnComment
-
Re: 2007 Rotella T ZDDP levels - can't find info
On my last trip to Walmart all the national brand HD diesel engine oils were CJ-4, but Walmart's house brand, "Super Tech", was CI-4, and quarts were only a buck and a half, so that's what I bought. The color of the Super Tech bottle is the same as Chevron Delo. Coincidence?
After cam breakin I recommend changing the filter because the solids in assembly lub can clog the filter, but the oil is not "dirty" and if you drain it you drain out the EOS too. With OE cam lobes and valve springs (which is all I recommend), a "cam breakin" really isn't necessary (GM didn't bother with this), but it's not a bad idea, and at some point you have to start the engine and do the normal checks, so why note keep it revving at about 2000 for 20 minutes.
I recommend just changing the filter after cam breakin, but leave the EOS laced HD diesel engine oil in for the full engine breakin period. It's also not a bad idea to change the filter again in the 200-500 mile range, but leave the oil in for about 1000 miles, and continue to use HD diesel engine oil, but no EOS is needed because even most CJ-4s still have a decent dose of ZDDP.
DukeComment
-
Re: 2007 Rotella T ZDDP levels - can't find info
Duke, I knew when I said that you were going to chirp in. I do agree with what you said. We changed the oil filter after a half an hour. But we also changed the engine oil which we probably should not have. Our Walmart has two brands of diesel oil. Notice I am behaving and not mentioning brands. Well back to work for me. Thanks, JohnComment
-
Rotella T API Listings on white gal jug specs
Front; "Shell Rotella T Triple Protection
Back; meets API Service CI4, CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4/SM, SL, SJ
No mention of CJ. Is this still the 2006 blending and not the new 2007 formulation?
Sorry if I'm a pain but don't want to have any issues with my engine like I've seen some of the BB have. Appreciate your patience. Thanks, Gary....NCRS Texas Chapter
https://www.ncrstexas.org/
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61565408483631Comment
-
Re: 2007 Rotella T ZDDP levels - can't find info
If you change the oil after cam breakin, you should also add a bottle of EOS, too, but since the oil isn't really "dirty" or contaminated it's a waste. Decent filters (here I specifically recommend the Balwin P18 for the cartridge type in place of AC PF141 or equivalent) capture 90 percent of 10 micron particles in a single pass. Since this is less than typical running minimum bearing clearance, 10 micron particles are not harmful. It's the 20 and up micron particles that scratch bearings and cause other significant engine wear, but a decent filter should trap 99+ percent of these in a single pass.
My local Walmart in Torrance, CA carries all the national brands of HD diesel engine oil (in aphabetical order so as to not show favoratism) Chevron Delo, Mobil Delvac, and Shell Rotella, and IIRC they carry both the conventional base 15W-40 and the "synthetic" base 5W-40.
All the national brand 15W-40s were about 8-9 bucks a gallon. Walmart's Super Tech brand 15W-40 CI-4 was $7.48 a gallon, but for some strange reason is was only $1.48 a quart, so I bought quarts. I'll use these quarts as top off to achieve full capacity of all my cars until my stash of CI-4 Delo gallon jugs is gone. Then I'll go shopping for a CI-4 source. There are plenty of truck parts houses around here.
DukeComment
-
Re: 2007 Rotella T ZDDP levels - can't find info
Duke
do you know how long the oil will last and still be good in the jugs?Comment
-
Re: Rotella T API Listings on white gal jug specs
Gary, I just went and grabbed a jug that I bought from Walmarts last July 06. "Meets API SERVICE CI-4, CHh-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF/SJ, SJ 10W-30.
Used the above, engine builder used his favorite cam lube, Used GM E0S. Had no problems what so ever. I will buy some a jug at Walmart next trip and see what the 2007 stuff is. My jug is dated 05226. From my NCRS education I assume that means May 22, 2006? Probably since I bought the jug in July for sure. You know if you just use the cam lube and the EOS and any of the diesel oils or even regular engine oil you should not have any problems. But I have heard some horror stories from a big name restorer who lost several BB's because of no doing his homework like you are doing.Comment
-
Re: Rotella T API Listings on white gal jug specs
That label is VERY confusing. SM is listed which means it must meet the phosphorous limitation in the SM spec, which limits Zn to about .08 percent, where CI-4s in the past had about 0.12% percent Zn.
The surrogate for ZDDP concentration has traditionally been Zn, but API chose to limit P rather than Zn. I not sure why, but it could be that there are some other additive components that include P. For a given level of ZDDP most oils have Zn and P analyses in the same ballpark.
I've never run across a CI-4 that was labeled SM, but most are labeled SL. Maybe this blend is older stock as API did not allow use of the CJ-4 service category until last October. The use of SM was allowed in late 2005.
Both C and S category oils are now using a boron-based addtive to augment the lower ZDDP concentration. This allows them to pass the anti-wear tests with lower ZDDP, but I don't think these boron-based additives are proven yet in real world service. Only engine teardown and analysis of high mileage accumulation fleets in the next few years will prove their worth in the real world.
Notwithstanding all the above technical and administrative details, the oil you refer to is perfectly okay to use.
It will take some time to sort out all these details. The good news is that if these new HD engine oils are labeled SM, it's okay to use them in new cars without worrying about either catalyst degradation or excess wear.
If newer C-type oils meet SM, that's okay, especially for late model car owners. But it DOES NOT MEAN that an oil labeled only SM meets a C-type spec, so for vintage cars, don't use an oil that does not carry either CJ-4 or CI-4 spec and ignore the accompanying S-specs.
DukeComment
-
Re: 2007 Rotella T ZDDP levels - can't find info
If you had browsed the two web sites I posted in a previous thread on the subject a couple of days ago, you would have found that one of them stated shelf life for motor oil in good conditions (not too hot) is three years.
For this reason I do not recommend buying a "lifetime supply" of CI-4 oil. CJ-4 is NOT that much "worse", and CI-4 should remain available for some years to come, but you might have to look around at some non-traditional sources to find it.
And within a couple of years we should know if the boron-based additives used to augment newer oils with less ZDDP controls wear in real world operation as well as prior CI-4 and older S-spec oils in addition to helping lower ZDDP oils pass the various certification wear tests.
We are spending WAAAAAAY to much time discussing oil. The bottom line is use an oil that has at least ONE C-spec, and if you drive your vintage car in winter and frequently cold start it at below 20 degrees F. use one of the 5W-40 synthetic base C-spec oils to get the benefit of the lower winter viscosity rating. Do not use any oil that ONLY carries the SM spec, especially if the winter viscosity rating is less than 20W.
Here are the two web sites again. I don't agree with everything in the discussion about vintage Porsches, but that's splitting hairs. If you spend the requisite 15-20 minutes reading the information on these sites, you will know more about motor oil than 99.999 percent of web bloggers, and your brain won't be contaminated with all the myths and misinformation that are so common.
DukeComment
-
Re: Rotella T API Listings on white gal jug specs
Gary,
Check farm supply stores. They have diesel oil for farm tractors with the old formulation.
If you have Atwoods, try them.
VerleComment
-
Re: Rotella T API Listings on white gal jug specs
I had the same concerns about SM & CJ-4 rating on the same label. I emailed API.org and the answer I recieved was if CJ-4 is the first rating on the " API donut" then the .08 limit is not applicable.Comment
-
Re: Rotella T API Listings on white gal jug specs
That's a very confusing response...
DukeComment
-
BB is a different animal than SB
Not only does the BB use stiffer springs to compensate for the heavier valves, the rocker arm ratio is greater as well, so the camshaft gets "more" pressure even with a similar spring tension as a SB.
That being said, I have run more than a few BB engines with flat tappet cams to 6500-7000 RPM and have not yet had a cam failure. I assemble all my engines with the supplied moly lube on the cam journals, use EOS with a good oil for startup, and prime the engine with an electric drill. I also add fuel to the carb bowls so the engine fires up immediately. For my BB engines, I limit my valvesprings to about 300-325 lbs pressure over the nose of the cam (at 0.600 lift). Yes, I too found that a lot of the "experts" don't even own the tools to check spring tension. I check all that stuff - just neurotic I guess - but I even found one of my spring sets was mispackaged from Comp Cams and came with MUCH stiffer springs (145# seat, over 450# open) talk about a cam killer!
MarkComment
Comment