Reproduction '63-4 seat foam

[G B.]

I have a local upholstery man install new foam and seat covers after I rebuild the seat frames and weave new wires through the burlap pads. I'd rather pay for his experience than mess up a bunch of covers learning his trade. This division of labor usually results in beautiful seats. However, this week we hit a snag (again) trying to install '63-4 seat bottom covers.

A little history: the first set of '63-4 seats I rebuilt with him was two years ago. I don't know who made the foam. The covers were from Corvette America. Everything fit fine. The second set was last year. The foam and covers were from Corvette America. He called and said it was impossible to get the covers over the foam bottoms. He ending up making his own foam pads for the seat bottoms.

We're now rebuilding some '64 seats. Trying to get the best fit possible, I bought both foam and seat covers from Al Knoch through Corvette Central. I insisted on Al Knoch products to the point of returning the Corvette America items they sent initially by mistake. At least the replacement upholstery arrived in Al Knoch boxes. The foam clearly says "Eckler's" on each pad.

Now the upholstery man says we've got fit problems again. Once more, the seat bottom covers can't be installed without extreme compression of the foam. He is convinced that the bottom foam is too thick by at least an inch. It's also possible that the "installation kit" comes with tie-down wires that are an inch too short. I don't know who actually made the installation kit for Corvette Central.

Has anyone else had this problem fitting '63-4 seat bottom foam? Any idea what's gone wrong here? Has anyone bought '63-4 seat bottom foam recently that fit okay? If so, whose brand name is on the foam?

[Patrick H.]

Re: Reproduction '63-4 seat foam

Jerry,

While not a 63-4 owner, this is what I have found on working on 70-72 cars and having very similar seat problems:

1. You have to yell and scream to get Al Knoch parts through Corvette Central, as you noticed. I gave up, and either buy from Al directly, or actually get a better price through The Last Detail on Al Knoch items. And yes, my Al Knoch foam in the basement right now says Al Knoch on it. I would not, however, be surprised if Al Knoch makes foam for Eckler's and you happened to get a set. In addition, as with any maker, the headrest portion of the foam for my seats doesn't fit well no matter who makes it, just as the bottoms don't fit on yours. The bottoms on mine, however, fit fine from any maker when the correct length wires are used. I watched the Al Knoch workers install foam on a set of seats like mine last year at Bloomington and learned a lot.

2. What exactly surprises you that reproduction seat wires are not correct?

With as many Corvettes as you have worked on, aren't you surprised when a reproduction part DOES fit?

For 70-72 cars, I have extra seats that thankfully donate items that I need when the kits are incorrect, and also have used stout coathanger wire for some items. In addition, I have cleaned (wire wheel or blasted) the wires you speak of and re-used them in order to get correct lengths. Neither the Corvette Central, Corvette America or Al Knoch kits are correct on all of the wires. These kits tend to be helpful, but as with interior screw kits, lacking.

Jerry, I hope this helps to let you know that there are no perfect suppliers for all seat items, and you may have to improvise. I'd be interested to hear what some 63-4 owners say. Also, Al Knoch does install foam and covers as well, and the cost and shipping may be worth it in the future.

Patrick Hulst #16386

[Gavin N.]

Re: Reproduction '63-4 seat foam

Its good to know that it may not be my incompetence after all! I've taken my repro seats apart twice on my '64 trying to get the seat to 'sit' flat. My last attempt was to pull the seat springs down to lay as flat as possible. Its better but from what I can tell the foam is just too thick.

[G B.]

It just gets curiouser

Patrick and Gavin's comments were most informative. They were inspiring even.

I called Al Knoch this morning and asked about the "Eckler's" identification on the seat foam I received in Knoch boxes. They had never heard of such a thing. The Knoch phone person asked someone near her how this could have possibly happened. They were both absolutely and completely stumped.

I then called Corvette Central for their version. They were extremely polite. A person named Mike came on the phone and told me he had ordered my foam from Al Knoch as I requested. They don't normally sell Al Knoch foam, but bought some for me. They had Al Knoch ship it directly to me to save time. Sure enough, the invoice says "direct ship" right on it. Mike said that Eckler's no longer makes seat foam. In fact, he said that Eckler's sold their foam molds to (you'll never guess) Al Knoch. Mike offered to refund my money for the double shipping and Corvette America return shipping, which I accepted. I told him I was not returning the Eckler/Knoch foam to him for a refund even though the bottoms don't fit. After all, CC had gone out of their way to get me exactly what I had demanded.

I'm going to take the original foam pads and tie-down wires to the upholstery shop this afternoon. We'll use them as patterns to make the parts we need to finish these seats. And the next time I need new '63-4 seat foam... well, I just don't know what I'll do. But I know exactly what I WON'T buy again.

[Patrick H.]

Re: It just gets curiouser

Jerry,

FWIW, I highly suggest looking at 63-4 seat foam at the Al Knoch trailer when you go to Bloomington or Carlisle. They have let me take it out of the box and inspect it without a problem. I also suggest looking for the Al Knoch name in the foam, and inspecting the thickness.

BTW, Mike is a nice guy, but I don't think I would take the Eckler/Knoch story, as Al was making foam before Eckler's. You might call Al himself, as he will likely be more than willing to discuss the foam with you as well as the Ecklers bit. He might actually like to hear your input. As well, if the foam came direct from him to you he will have an invoice on his end to prove it. As much as I may like some of the guys at Corvette Central, I believe them as far as I can throw them.

So does this story go along with the GM-original trans tunnel insulation I bought through the dealer (in GM box with GM stickers), and then found the Paragon logo stamped on top of it???

Patrick Hulst

[Jimmy G.]

Re: Reproduction '63-4 seat foam

Jerry, if I were you I would have sent the s%#t back. Until we as customers start demanding good products, the manufacturers will never correct problems. If I sell a customer bad paint pigment, you can believe I will have to take it back.

[G B.]

Onward, thru the fog!

Since all avenues of retreat are blocked anyway...

Here's what I found when I compared the factory parts to the reproduction bottom covers, foam pads, and installation tie-downs.

The factory bottom covers are 21.5" across at the widest point when held flat. The Knoch reproductions are 23" at the same point, and all of the extra width is in the pleated section. The original bottom cover has 12 full pleats plus a half pleat on each side. The reproduction cover has 14 full pleats.

The reproduction foam is two inches thicker than the factory foam at the outside of the bottom "side wings". The foam beneath the center pleated section is about .5" thicker than the original. (It looks to me like they used a '65-6 seat foam mold modified with rounded front corners for making the reproduction '63-4 foam bottoms.) Also, the reproduction foam has a layer of burlap molded into the bottom face that doesn't exist on the originals. I guess this is intended to replicate the separate .5" of jute and single layer of steel reinforced burlap that the factory installed in that location to spread the load over the springs.

The installation kit I got from Corvette Central contained wire tie-downs that are all 1.25" long. The factory tie-downs varied from in length from 1.5" near the seat back to 2.25" near the front of the seat bottom. The factory tie-downs were made in two pieces. The part that hooked on the frame was made of steel wire about .75" long. The part that attached to the seat cover was a cloth loop sewn into the seat binding. These loops varied in length from .75" to 1.5". The Knoch reproduction seat bottom covers do not have any loops sewn into the binding.

There were other differences too, but I think you get the picture from these examples. I told the upholstery shop to cut the Eckler(?) bottom foam down to size and attach the covers with nylon tie-downs that vary in length to make the cover have the factory contour.

Yep, I could demand a refund for the reproduction parts that don't fit. And then whose parts do I buy with the money? I do complain to manufacturers and suppliers alike about things aren't made correctly. You know what they tell me? They always respond that I'm the first person who's ever had a problem with that item, so it must be something that I'm doing wrong. Not one has ever said they would stop selling the defective part until they made it correctly.

Thanking you all for letting me vent my spleen on this board, I now go back to work.

[Patrick H.]

Foggy Reproduction Parts

Jerry,

Amazing how every one of us gets the story that we are the first one to complain. If I had a dollar for every time I heard that one, I could afford to buy a car that was already done. Don't believe it for a second. As long as they can make a profit selling incorrect junk, only taking a smallish percent back, they'll do it.

The more I work on these cars, the more I try to repair or restore the original parts. Reproduction parts are often significantly inferior to a used original, thus the fact that the price for used is often just as high. Until all reproduction suppliers follow along with the very few who make EXACT parts (TrimParts comes to mind), we will have to put up with the junk. I have had catalog companies offer to send replacements, but they are just sending me another example of the same junk. No point in that.

By the way, if you think reproduction parts in our hobby are bad, try to restore a VW Beetle (the old ones). You ain't seen junk 'til you try those parts.

Take care,

Patrick Hulst