55 vette dot tire marking

[Don S.]

I think I received a deduction for having dot tires. (no judging sheets yet) I cannot find the dot mark on the tires but I have not crawled under the car yet. Where is the marking located.

I also have looked in the NCRS technical information manual and Judging guide and there is no mention of the dot marking. Do judges have a different manual than me? and if so is this fair.?
Where would one get non dot tires for a 55. Is this almost impossible.Can you scrape the dot marking off the tires or is this a no no.

[Jack H.]

Re: 55 vette dot tire marking

Look at the inside side wall of your tires. You ought to see a DOT + sequence with the sequence being 11 characters long for tires made before the turn of the century and 12 characters long for tires made in this century.

The DOT leglislation for tires took effect in 1968. The judges and those with reasonable skills know this. Hence, as your car left the factory (standard for Flight Judging), the tires would NOT have had a DOT sequence on them.

As far as the information not being in the NCRS 'information manual', you're looking in the wrong book. Items that are common to all cars regardless of year of manufacture, are generally defined in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual. See Section 4, Standard Deductions, and read Rule 3, Tires. There, you'll find a check list for how much originality point deduction a judge should apply based on how closely a given tire matches that which was factory original to the car...

[Kent K.]

Re: 55 vette dot tire marking

Don,

DOT markings are on all tires manufactured today including reproduction tires. The standard deduction for reproduction tires that meet the same tread pattern, width, etc. is, if memory serves and it hasen't changed in the last 10 years, only 10% of the total 30 points permitted, or 3 points out of 4500. I figure if NCRS allots 10 points for having a fire extinguisher, window NCRS decal and a battery cut-off switch, I'm still 7 points ahead. Original non-DOT tires would be unsafe at any speed today. They're just toooooo old.

Regards, Kent #6201

[Chuck W.]

Re: 55 vette dot tire marking

Does seem to be a bit in conflict though giving points for a battery shut off switch and a window sticker (neither of which were installed or available from the factory) but deducting points for using safer, correct reproduction tires.

[Chuck G.]

Re: 55 vette dot tire marking

No points for a window sticker. You get 10 bonus points IF you have the following 3 items:

Fire extinguisher
Battery Cut Off
NCRS Decal in the window (Not a window sticker)

I wouldn't even think of buying let alone driving on 50+ year old original non DOT tires. Chuck

[Kent K.]

Re: 55 vette dot tire marking

Thanks for clarifying my previous statement or, that is, saying it more distinctly. If one simply shows their Corvette with the original tires that old (50+ years), they may receive a deduction for condition that exceeds the deduction for excellent reproduction tires with DOT markings. PLUS, who would spend the $$,$$$ for original tires when it could go for more usefull original parts that are either not reproduced or incorrectly reproduced??? OOPS, there I go being real again.
Kent #6201

P.S. - Nice to see you at Old Town and, Chuck, we already have reservations for Boston this summer.

[Chuck W.]

Re: 55 vette dot tire marking

Not looking to argue semantics, the NCRS decal is the window sticker that I was referring to. My point is the first 2 items appear to be safety related (fire extinguisher & battery cut off). The NCRS decal is a club elective. It can be argued that new correct reproduction DOT tires are also safety related as tires, even those stored under the best conditions have a useful, practical life before deterioration begins. I was simply pointing out the apparent conflict in the logic.

[Chuck G.]

Re: 55 vette dot tire marking

I can see your point.

That being said, there are those individuals who do have original tires. They should be recoginzed for having such. Many of these cars are trailered to events and not driven much, if at all.

The point loss for repro tires is very little. The "cost per point" analysis doesn't work for me. One could spend 3K-5K + for a set of original tires to gain 3-4 points. Not worth it for me. I don't know if anyone has ever had a 100 point/100% car.

If I can gain 3-4 points for moderate $$$ investments, I choose that route.

Chuck

[Chuck W.]

Re: 55 vette dot tire marking

Closest car I've seen to 100% is Darrell Davis' '57 Fuelie (I believe he scored 99.5+% at the 2006 National meet). His loss due to DOT tires was significant considering his total point deduct. Trailered cars could just as easily remove the battery terminal vs. a shut off switch.

I agree that those that have original tires should be recognized in some way.... just as those with correctly date coded shocks!

[Terry M.]

Bonus points

Chuck,
The original intent of the bonus points for the three items mentioned was to give folks enough points to prevent them from believing they had to spend an exorbitant sum for the impractical, and as you point out unsafe, original non-dot tires. The belief was that an investment of $100 or so for those three items would yield the same ten points that were the tire deduction.
While safety was a secondary consideration it was not the main motivator for the change. Safety did, I am sure, help get the issue passed, especially when a Corvette on the show field at a national convention began to smoke from an electrical short.

[Chuck W.]

Re: Bonus points

Thanks Terry. I did not know the origin of the bonus point intention. Don's original question got me thinking.... big mistake.

On related topics:

Why would the explaination of DOT deduct be in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual when it is pertinent only to pre-1968 models and not relevant to all years?

Also would a mid 70's model (which should have an 11 character DOT sequence) with correct modern reproduction tires carrying a 12 character DOT sequence receive a deduction?

[Jack H.]

Re: Bonus points

"Why would the explaination of DOT deduct be in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual when it is pertinent only to pre-1968 models and not relevant to all years?

Also would a mid 70's model (which should have an 11 character DOT sequence) with correct modern reproduction tires carrying a 12 character DOT sequence receive a deduction?"

(1) It's not that non-DOT tires are applicable to all years of Corvette, it's the fact that all years of Corvette have TIRES. The JRM standard deduction covers tires in general and the DOT sequence is only one aspect of tires in general...

(2) As far as 11 vs. 12-digit DOT sequence goes, the issue gets more complex. When the intitial DOT regulation went into effect, there was no 'standardized' DOT sequence. Each tire manufacturer had the responsibility of making up their own, proprietary, sequence that contained the information DOT required (where made, when made, Etc.).

The system was 'standardized' in 1971 to an 11-digit sequence (became 12-digit after the turn of the century). So, all 'DOT tires' will have SOME sequence on them and, with the right knowledge, the date portion of the sequence can be translated.

Now, as far as judging goes, you have to read the individual Judging Reference Manual to see if that particular National Team Leader (Flight Judging is rather 'feudal' in nature with differences of opinion as to what to judge and what not to judge being a function of the particular 'judging division' at hand) has given guidance on the DOT issue. Some might say NOT to judge the tires using DOT sequence, others might define the sequence that's expected, and still others may sit silent on the issue.

Therefore, you go by what the JG says. If it prohibits judges from judging based on the DOT sequence, then you don't judge it. If it tells you what the DOT sequence should be, then you judge it. If it's silent on the issue altogether, then it becomes the responsibility of the individual judges and their specific knowledge/experience.

[Terry M.]

"Feudal system"

I like that Jack -- made me laugh

[Verle R.]

Re: Bonus points

Careful Jack, the Lord of the Manor may be watching.

[Jack H.]

Re: Bonus points

It wasn't a critique or 'slam'... Our system is not entirely 'tops down'. By that I mean the National Judging Chairman merely sets standards and empowers appointed individuals to write and maintain the Judging Guide(s) for their respective division(s).

Hence, aspects of originality that one National Team Leader believes to be important (e.g. judging tires right on down to their DOT marks) may not be considered important by another NTL in a 'equivalent' yet different division. That's one of the reasons we have the books we do.

Those who look across NCRS judging divisions and expect to find rigid consistency on each and every judged item will be disappointed. Some items are treated differently and that's just the way our system is.

Sure it could be improved, but to what extent do we go with the overhead of staffing to review and force part by part consistency? Anyone setting the various JG books side by side, will quickly find 'holes' here/there. But, within a given division there IS rule consistency.