71 corvette

[danalewis]

I have a 1971 corvette now about to be restored.
The restorer tells me I should replace the frame, replace the inner frame, replace the body as well.

If I take his advice, do I damage the value of my car? Is it the same car anymore?

What are my options?

[Michael W.]

What are my options?

If your restorer is really telling you to change the body, birdcage and frame you might as well move on and find a better car to restore. This one sounds like it's past the point of no return- you can't save them all.

As to value, sounds like this one has very little at this point so anything you do will increase it. Whether it is cost effective or not is a different question.

What are your eventual goals for the car?

[Mark #28455]

Why do you need to essentially replace car?

Need more info - Why do you need to replace essentially the whole car? Is your car that messed up? If so, unless it's an original LT1 or LS6, you may end up with a lot more $$$ in it than it's worth. If it really is in that bad a condition, it may be cheaper to get a car in better condition and part yours out for $$$ to help pay the bills.

On the other hand, is your restorer on the same page as you? Are you looking for a nice driver and the restorer is looking to build a Top Flight show car? Or is the restorer trying to sell you more than you really need? You may want to get a second opinion to see if they agree with the first plan.
Mark

[Jack H.]

Re: 71 corvette

That kind of advice typically comes from an experienced restorer looking at a Shark car that's been poorly maintained. The Achille's Heel is the windshield.

If the front glass was ever replaced and the those who did the job lacked the experience to PROPRLY caulk it, wind driven rain water flowed to the upper edges and corners of the glass attacking the windshield frame. If allowed to persist too long, the water ate holes in the windshield frame (it's tubular/hollow) and gave the water an invasion path allowing it to flow down the car's bird cage (steel structural reinforcement skeleton) and puddle at the lower front uprights and along the lower sills.

Bottom line, the bird cage rusts from the inside out then begins to attach the frame from the top side down. The 'fix' is QUITE extensive which is how some of these cars go to market at very 'reasonable' prices...

A frame swap typically runs $1500-2000 for the frame + the labor to move the existing body over onto the new donor frame. Frame numbers are NOT judged in factory concours events and you'll only enhance the car's longevity and value.

Repairing the damage to the bird cage is a bigger job, but even that can be done depending on how extensive the rust damage is. The approach is to acquire the center portion of an equivalent car that's been fully parted out (cost is in the $500-1000 range). Strip your body's exterior trim and interior to gain access to the bird cage and start 'probing' to find where rust damage is critical and where there's still solid, usable steel sections.

Then, the rotted out portions of the existing bird cage are cut out, the remaining good interior sections of the bird cage are shot with stop-rust paint, and equivalent sections from the donor car are cut, moved over and welded into place.

Typically, the bird cage portions that are physically upright (forward cabin members, lower ends of the windshield surround, Etc.) will be OK since they didn't provide a 'plane' for the water to puddle/sit on. This allows damaged sections to be swapped without having to 'peel' away the front and rear body panels that are bonded to the bird cage. Hopefully, you're able to salvage the existing body without having to detach the car's VIN/Trim tags...

Figure it's a solid 1-2 manweeks of labor to execute this kind of major surgery. During factory concours judging the VIN and Trim tags are closely scrutinized and if there's evidence of 'tampering' the judging penalties are severe. That's why you'd go to the effort to repair the existing bird cage rather than simply do a body swap and move the tags onto the donor car body...

If I'm right and this is the situation you're facing, you've got a BIG decision to make... Do you execute the 'heroic' restoration tasks necessary to reclaim this car, or do you simply part it out, take the proceeds and go buy another? Nobody can answer that except you.

It's reasonably likely you'll recover your purchase price (maybe more) by parting the car out... On the other hand, there's nothing like the satisfaction of having saved a Corvette from the graveyard and bringing it back to excellent condition.

[Dick W.]

Re: 71 corvette

Dana, after looking at your profile, I see the car has great sentimental value to you. While your "opportunities" with this car are large, they are not insurmountable. Jack has some good info in his post. Just take a deep breath, and proceed slowly. Look forward to seeing the car sometime in the future.

[Verle R.]

Re: 71 corvette

Dana,

Before you go too far or maybe any farther, I would find an NCRS member near you who is knowledgable in 70-72 Corvettes and have them go over the car with you. Someone who has no financial motive.

They can give you an objective idea of what is needed.

Verle

[danalewis]

Re: 71 corvette

jack - thansk for taking the time to respond. Great advice. I really appreciate it.

I want to restore the car.

[Joseph T.]

Re: 71 corvette

Dana..take the time to calculate the overall cost of what it will take to restore your car and the amount of time it will take... So you are not surprised along the way.

It can be and is a very rewarding process...but many and probably most fail to realize the monetary or time committment involved.

There are many board members here that will help you based on their experience.

Best of Luck.

Joe Trybulec

[Joe L.]

Re: 71 corvette

Dana-----

If, indeed, the car does require a new frame and body with birdcage, then for all practical purposes, you'd not be restoring this car. What you'd be doing is using parts off of it to restore ANOTHER car. Even if the VIN tag from your car were transferred to the "restored" car (which may be illegal in many states), you'd still only have another car with your original car's VIN.

In the process of doing the above, you'd end up with a huge cost that would almost certainly far exceed the value of the car when it's finished. If someone else is doing the work (which sounds like the route you're taking) the cost is going to be very high.

I realize that the car may have sentimental value for you. However, as I say, if it requires what you described, then you're not really going to end up with the same car, anyway. It will be another car which uses some of the pieces off your car. If that preserves in your mind the sentimental attachment that you have for the car and cost is no object, then, by all means, proceed.

[Chuck S.]

What I Would Do...

Maybe you missed the previous thread discussing the cost of having a 69 Corvette restored; the price by people in a position to know was $60K. That was for a good solid car without bird cage work...you would spend a lot more than that.

Given the car's sentimental value, I would do something like Jack suggests, but save a ton of cash and have essentially the same result: Find a good solid California or southwestern car, and use that body and frame. Restore as many of original parts of your Dad's car as you can and use those. Transfer the VIN plate (using correct rosette rivets) and trim plate. If the donor car has any non-original body panels, have the restorer replace with the original panels from your Dad's car.

To me, the heart of the car is the engine and driveline...beyond that fiberglass body panels are dated, but for the most part those dates are not visible. If the VINs were fairly close (a lot less flexibility to find a suitable donor) the assignment of the specific fiberglass panels was an accident of fate anyway. Most of the soft interior goods will also be replaced, so strict sentimentality is fading away.

Personally, I would not get into body frame (bird cage) restoration. One thing you DO need to do is read some of the articles that have been written on establishing the scope of work and project cost with the restorer. I spent a career dealing with contractors who basically wanted to conceal the true cost of a project until they had you so deeply committed you either pay an exorbitant amount, or you walked away/changed contractors with a job half done.

Do a little research...the articles on restoration are out there...it seems like there was one in The Corvette Restorer magazine.

[Terry F.]

Re: 71 corvette

I would not touch the bird cage. It is a nightmare. Even if you did diesect it to the point where you could get at it, putting it back together with proper alignment would be a world record challenge and so hard to do properly. It would be doable to find a nice bird cage and just transfer the front and rear clip, but that would be tough also. I suspect your doors are rotted also. If you were in the sort of environment that rust had time to eat the frame and bird cage I would bet the doors are toast as well. But, anything is possible and if you do one thing at a time, it will eventually get done. Truly, it is a time, money and talent issue more than anything. Find the right restorer and they might enjoy the challange. If I had the right car, I would do it. Better have deep pockets and a lot of room. The driveline and frame are easy. It is the birdcage that will get you. If it is at all drivable as it is, I would consider cleaning it up, keeping it well away from the environment and enjoying it as is. Take care, Terry

[Charlie P.]

Re: 71 corvette

I think Joe Lucia is 100% correct. If the car is that far deteriorated, it will cost a fortune to make new AND it will really NOT be the same car your father owned when it is done anyway. I think a better way to pay tribute to the car and to your father might be to find a dry place to store it and leave it as is, "whole", so to speak.

[Chuck R.]

Re: 71 corvette

Hi dana,

Yours is a question that can only be answered by doing some home work and getting a feel for just how your car is put together.

Why don't you have the "restorer" show you what they see, it can't hurt.

I agree that you may greatly bennifit from a local fellow enthusiest giving your machine a once over.

I went the same route dana, first it was the frame and then the body. I ended up purchasing donor components after I had dismembered the car and had the free board to closley inspect the typlical blow out areas that these cars are known for. Then the decision process was a no brainer.

It was in talking with the folks on this board that slowly convinced me that patching up paper thin steel and cleaving fiberglass away from cage components might not be in my best interest.

That's what's so great about this board, there's countless "been there, done that" stories from seasoned vets on Vettes.

Good luck with your project dana,

Chuck 32205

[Jack H.]

For what it's worth...

I got my Corvettes from my uncle's estate. Hence, acquisition cost was zero. His '71 was in a very similar condition being drive exclusively in Ohio, Illinois, and Michigan during its 'first life'.

The upper windshield frame was absolute toast and when we pulled the body (it's a convertible), two things happened:

(1) The bird cage sill rails turned to dust and the body started to 'fold' -- tip to tail!

(2) The RH frame rail broke in two and the LH frame rail broke into three discrete sections.

The above due to the water invasion process I outlined above (gee, how did I know when I was making that post?). Since my acquisition cost was zero, the power train was factory original, this was a family car with sentiment involved, and the car was rather 'rare' -- base engine SB, but a convertible with A/C, I made the decision to go forward and repair/restore vs. part 'er out.

Several others who participate on the Board here have seen the finished vehicle whish has done the Founders Award five times now and has logged about 60K miles since frame off.

Point: it CAN be done! But, you need to SERIOUSLY plot your course and get the help of pro's who've been there, done that, got the T-shirt or you're likely to wind up with a botched mess and lose your out-of-pocket....

[Mark #28455]

Re: 71 corvette

There are several sellers on e-bay who regularly part out early shark cars. One that comes to mind is "maxspaintshop" (but I'm sure there are others too). Over the past 2 mos, he has parted out at least 3 1969's and currently a 1972. One of the 1969's was a new mexico no rust car, another had minimal rust and the bodies went for about $1000. The frames were also reasonably priced. If you're lookling for a driver, you may want to consider buying a frame and body shell and swapping over your parts. Yes, there are ways to swap VIN and trim tags - some states allow rosette rivets to be used under VERY strict regulation.

Mark