Judging policy when the manual is "wrong"

[Joe R.]

I have a question about the discretion that judges are allowed during judging. I have seen cases where a judge believes the manual to be incorrect on a certain item and chooses NOT to make a deduction even though the manual says it is incorrect. I believe this is fairly common among experienced judges.

My question has to do with the reverse situation. If the manual states that something is acceptable but the judge believes the manual to be incorrect, is the judge allowed to make a deduction?

[Terry M.]

yes *NM*

[Rick A.]

Re: Judging policy when the manual is "wrong"

Joe,

no one will like the answer - JG is the gospel when judging takes place - so, no matter what a judge may think they know, deductions must be taken as appropriate

[Barbara S.]

Re: Judging policy when the manual is "wrong"

Rick. I think Joe asked a different question. The question is: if the car meets the criteria of the JG, but the judge believes that the JG is wrong, will the judge follow the JG anyway (and not give a deduction) or will the judge disregard the JG and give a deduction?

Thanks.
Tony

[Rick A.]

Re: Judging policy when the manual is "wrong"

as I stated, JG is gospel - so, if the car meets the criteria there is NO DEDUCTION - that is the entire purpose of the JG - take the "subjectivity" out of the equation

FYI - a judge should note/document the discrepancy and alert the TEAM LEAD of the problem - in this way, the JG can be corrected

[Michael H.]

Re: Judging policy when the manual is "wrong"

Joe,

I understand what you're saying but, at least for me, it would be difficult to have an opinion without knowing what the problem is. It's possible that the judge may be 100% correct and he well knows that the manual is in error.

The manual was supposedly renamed "Judging Guide", from "Judging Manual", for this exact reason. It gave the judge some flexibility.

If the judge is the ONLY person that thinks the manual is incorrect on this particular item, then I would agree that he may be wrong and the manual should be followed.

[Tony Merendino]

Re: Judging policy when the manual is "wrong"

People use the Judging Guide as a guide to restoration. If you have a car that complies to the guide you should not receive a deduction because you have a judge who knows more than the guide. That would be blatantly unfair. If you have a book you must go by the book. If you must bend you must bend in the favor of the participant. If it is correct in the eye of the judge but not the book do not make a deduction. If it is correct by the book but not the judge do not make a deduction.

If a judge disagrees with the guide then he should take the steps necessary to change the guide but until it is changed it is the standard. That is my opinion on how it should be. What actually happens on the judging field may not be the same.

[Mike M.]

Re: Judging policy when the manual is "wrong"

tony: the JG wasn't intended as a guide to restoration. mike

[Harmon C.]

Re: Judging policy when the manual is "wrong"

Tony
I agree but on the judging field you may have seasoned and new judges so don't bet the farm on what they may do. You have the right to ask the team leader to decide if the deduction is alowed and that is what you should do on the spot and settle the problem on the field. A judgement can only be changed on the spot not days later right or wrong.

Lyle

[Tim G.]

Re: Judging policy when the manual is "wrong"

I had it go both ways in San Antonio, the judges felt (and so did I) that a specific captured fan belt should be on my car. The judging manual noted that this belt should not be on the car. I was not penalized.
On the other hand, the judging manual noted there should be a deduct if a dealer emblem is screwed on the rear of a Corvette. The judges did not deduct even though they could have justified the deduction. They rewarded the car for its original paint and overlooked this flaw.

[Terry M.]

Re: Judging policy when the manual is "wrong"

Joe,
In the light of day -- allow me to elaborate on my above post of early AM:
If the judge believes the manual is in error he/she is allowed to make a deduction even if the car complies with the manual.
If the owner objects, the appeal process is there to assist. The owner has the right to appeal to the team leader (if there is one at that meet), and/or the meet judging chairman and so on up to the national team leader (if he is present at that meet).
The judging guide is not intended to be step-by-step restoration instructions. It does not substitute for the owner (or the judges) doing their own research. That said, as Lyle points out, a judge should carefully consider his decisions which go against the judging manual. It is wisest to consult with other experienced judges before making such decisions.

[Gary B.]

Tim: Captured belt; some elaboration please

Tim,

Can you elaborate on your captured belt judging experience in San Antonio? I'm guessing you have a '65, '66 or '67 L79. Yes? I have a '66 L79 which I'm convinced should have the captured belt, but a key member of the '66 revision team does not believe that cars with no A/C, no power steering, and no AIR, came with a captued belt, hence any attempts to have the '66 TIM&JG changed have been unsuccessful, in spite of the fact that several senior judges think the presence of the captured belt is correct. It sounds like you found some sympathetic judges who do think the captured belt is correct.

In San Antonio, who were the judges on your car who didn't deduct for the presense of the captured belt? And who was the team leader?

Thanks,

Gary

[John D.]

Re: Judging policy when the manual is "wrong"

Hi Dr. Mike, You stated that the judging guide was not intended to be used as a guide to restoration. Could you please elaborate on this statement so the folks understand more clearly your message. If the JG is not to be used as a restoration guide what is? Seems you can't always count on AIMS. Can't always count on original blue prints. With all the bubba's now a days you can't count on looking at restored cars that much. You and I are close friends and I value your opinion big time but I am not clear as to which way an NCRS member should turn if he doesn't use the JG as a guide. When I asked judges at Auburn while I ojed for the 63-64 mechanical team how they used the JM in judging the answer was we use it for a guide. I thought that was a decent answer. Thanks very much, John

[Tim G.]

Re: Tim: Captured belt; some elaboration please

Gary,
Yes, a '66 L79 with no AC, AIR, or PS. At Waco, the judges again felt that it should have this belt and I had not installed it. I didn't install it for San Antonio and was fully prepared for a deduct that didn't happen. The thing is that I know it should be on there, I don't think they would have deducted if it was in place.

[Gary B.]

Captured belt

Tim,

The same thing happened at the Monterey National a few years ago. The owner of a '67 L79 being flight judged had removed his captured belt since the TIM&JG said it shouldn't be there and he didn't get a deduct (since his configuration now agreed with the JG), but he really felt the belt should be there. Based on so many people believing these captured belts are correct, I can only hope that the JG will be corrected in my lifetime, but I'm not betting on it.

Gary