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300hp Motor rebuild....

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  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 1, 1993
    • 15674

    #16
    Re: 300hp Motor rebuild....

    IIRC the early 300 HP engines had an advertised CR of 10.5, but it was dropped to 10.25 in later years, possibly due to the larger chambers of the 462 heads, which elimnated the plug side quench zone of the 461s, but as was typical, "as built" these engines, and all engines of that era, were probably a half a point lower.

    I believe steel shim gaskets are available, but can't quote any sources.

    "Advertised" CR always includes implicit assumptions, and it's too bad they are not more explicitly stated. This applies to both OE and aftermarket.

    A piston advertised as XX.X:1 CR ASSUMES several dimensions. Usually on a SB a nominal deck height of 9.025" is assumed, but most were machined high at Flint as I previously stated. Also, the advertised CR assumes a particular head gasket thickness, which is often not specified, and a chamber volume is assumed or stated.

    So what's the piston compression height, volume, assumed deck clearance and gasket thicknesss for the specified range of CR for your proposed pistons.

    Like I keep saying, it's all in the details. The difference between a shim gasket and a composition gasket - 15 to 20 thou - is half a point! And typical high decks cut the actual CR another quarter point or so relative to "advertised".

    That's why I keep harping about measurilng deck clearance prior to disassembly. It tells you if the decks are parallel to the crankshaft axis and how high they are relative to nominal specs, and with this data you can compute the CR of the engine prior to disassembly assuming you have the compression height and volume of the installed pistons. Combine the measured deck height with the compression height and volume of the new pistons and you can compute the new CR with various head gaskets.

    Combine the above with your prior experience with the engine. Did it have a tendency to detonate? If so, lowering the CR with a thicker gasket may be in order.

    Is one deck side higher than the other? If the LH side is high it can be cut down to equal the right and achieve a consistent ratio side to side.

    In order for you to achieved the "advertised" CR of you '64 327/300 I can just about guarantee that you would have to deck BOTH sides of the block, which would wipe out the stamp pad, which is definitely not a good idea. And you would have to used a thin shim gasket. And I can also just about guarantee you that this set up will detonate unless you ran a very lazy advance curve, which will lower the torque curve, especially at the bottom end.

    The highest actual CR I recommend for your engine is 9.75:1 and with a composition gasket, OE or equivalent piston compression height, and typical deck height I doubt if the assembled engine with exceed this value, but start with the teardown measurements, calculate the CR of the existing setup, a new proposed setup and go from there.

    Duke

    Comment

    • Duke W.
      Beyond Control Poster
      • January 1, 1993
      • 15674

      #17
      Re: 300hp Motor rebuild....

      Flattop pistons? What's the compression height? Not all are the same. Some "flattop" pistons may have and advertised CR of 9:1 and others are 10:1 or whatever.

      A lot of SHP engines have been rebuilt with "low compression" flattop pistons, which have lower compression height and "advertised" CR than the OE 300 HP pistons. This is a mistake!

      Flattop, domed..., whatever is meaningless. Unless you know the compression height and volume you're just whistling Dixie.

      And unless you know the installed deck clearance and compressed gasket thickness CR is nothing but a WAG.

      Duke

      Comment

      • Jim V.
        Expired
        • November 1, 1991
        • 587

        #18
        in summary......

        Let me see if I got this right....old dog new tricks...

        1. Calculating static CR requires:
        NPCH-new piston compression height (see piston spec)
        PV-piston volume (see piston spec)
        DH-deck height (computed OPCH + DC)
        GT-head gasket thickness
        CV-cylinder head chamber volume.

        2. Optimal target static CR for a 300hp SB is 9.75 and 10.25 for SHP. This varies do to dynamic CR issues associated with cam profiles.

        3. MEASURE PRE_REBUILD DECK CLEARANCE (DC). Add measured deck clearance to old piston compression height (OPCH) to detemine DH.

        4. Select pistons and head gaskets for target static CR by
        selecting appropriate pistons (compression height + volume)
        pick head gasket based on thickness needed for target static CR
        cutting pistons??????
        milling heads?????????????

        5. Use second design OE 327 rods

        6. Balance rotating assembly

        7. Three angle valve job with original size valves. DONT NEED HARDENED SEATS.

        8. Intake and exhaust Port match and pocket port heads. DO NOT POLISH.

        to name a few....

        QUESTION IS...WHERE DO YOU GET THE COMPRESSION HEIGHT FOR THE ORIGINAL PISTONS. WITHOUT THIS YOU CAN NOT CALCULATE DECK HEIGHT?????????????????????????????????

        JimV

        Comment

        • Duke W.
          Beyond Control Poster
          • January 1, 1993
          • 15674

          #19
          Re: in summary......

          I think you've got it. Here is the compression height and volume data for the OE 327 pistons.

          250/300 HP 1.671", -5.4cc
          SHP/FI 1.675", +5.3cc

          The 250/300 HP pistons have a net NEGATIVE volume because of the valve notches.

          Use 61 to 62 cc for early 461 heads with 1.94/1.50" valves. Add a cc for big valve 461s. For 462s use 63-64 cc for 1.94/1.50" valves and add a cc for big valves. The 462s have slightly more volume due to the elimination of the spark plug side quench zone, and the radius cut centered on the inlet valve axis with 2.02" valve adds maybe another cc.

          It's also a good idea to bevel the chamber sides to the edge of the bores, especially on the exhaust side. Just dye the heads, place them on the block, scribe bore lines and use this as a guide. Don't open the the entire chamber wall. Just bevel from the top of the chamber to the bottom to eliminate the overhang. This will add another cc or two. In the end, it's best to cc the chambers and do whatever grinding is required to get them at least within 1 cc.

          So if you had a nominal machined deck (9.025" above the crankshaft centerline) the measured deck clearance for 250/300 HP should be .029" (9.025 - 1.671 - 5.700 - 1.625) and .025" for SHP/FI, but because the decks are typically high, your measurements will be probably be greater and slightly different side to side. If the measurements are consisent along each bank the decks are parallel to the C/S axis, which is usually the case.

          The compressed thickness I have for the OE steel shim gaskets is .018", but I have seen some quoted at .015".

          Now take this data to the online CR calculator I posted earlier and play around. Use nomial deck clearance and try different gasket thicknessess. Also increase deck clearance by 5 to ten thou with different gasket thicknesses.

          Notice that only about 15-20 thou - the difference in thickness between a shim and composition gasket varies the CR by about half a point.

          A little here means a lot.

          Duke

          Comment

          • Jim V.
            Expired
            • November 1, 1991
            • 587

            #20
            Re: in summary......

            Hey..maybe i'm not too old for new tricks....there is hope!

            I get the calc below with the exception of the -1.626
            DeckHeight-PistonCompressionHeight-Stroke-??????=DeckClearance

            Duke quote....
            So if you had a nominal machined deck (9.025" above the crankshaft centerline) the measured deck clearance for 250/300 HP should be .029" (9.025 - 1.671 - 5.700 - 1.625) and .025" for SHP/FI, but because the decks are typically high, your measurements will be probably be greater and slightly different side to side. If the measurements are consisent along each bank the decks are parallel to the C/S axis, which is usually the case.

            I likin this...thanks...keep ya posted on the journey.. Found some second design 327 rods. Thats a start!

            Thanks...your knowledge and patience is amazing..!
            JimV

            Comment

            • Duke W.
              Beyond Control Poster
              • January 1, 1993
              • 15674

              #21
              Re: in summary......

              I think you mean 1.625", which is the "crank throw radius" or half the stroke, 3.25/2.

              So with the piston at TDC the top of the piston should extend above the crankshaft axis by:

              Crank throw + rod length + piston compression height.

              or

              1.625 + 5.700 + 1.671 = 8.996 or 9.000 for SHP pistons.

              Subtract this from the nominal deck height of 9.025" and you have the expected deck clearance of .029" or .025" for SHP pistons if every dimension was right on nominal.

              Duke

              Comment

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