69'-ZL-1's

[Mark #28455]

Tonawanda production records

Tonawanda production records for the 1969 model year listed the number of ZL1's produced and whether in Corvette or Camaro trim and what number were shipped to the vehicle assembly plants. I have a copy of a Vette Views article on the ZL1 production from about 5 years ago written by a then GM engineering intern who was assigned to the Tonawanda plant and described the 1969 ZL1 production run as he saw it including the breakdown of engines assembled and shipped, details of how the engines were assembled and painted, etc.

I just can't find it at this moment as my stuff is all in storage until the new house is done.

Mark

[Joe L.]

Re: Tonawanda production records

Mark-----

All that would prove is that such engines were built and, perhaps, that they were shipped to St. Louis. That does not mean that they were ever installed in a car. They could have been shipped back to Tonawanda, shipped to GMSPO, shipped elsewhere or, even, scrapped. I have absolutely no doubt, at all, that more than 71 ZL-1 engines were built during the 1969 model year. I have GREAT DOUBT that more than 71 were ever installed in cars intended for retail sale (2 Corvettes + 69 COPO Camaros).

Even if they were installed in a car, it does not mean that they were installed in a car intended for retail sale. They could have been installed in a car shipped to the tech center or the proving grounds and later scrapped.

There are all sorts of possibilities. GM's records show that TWO ZL-1s were installed in PRODUCTION cars for the 1969 model year. Both of those cars have been located and documented, to one degree or another. So, any other cars that "surface", especially those without any sort of documentation, are suspect. Highly suspect, in fact.

Not that it really matters. Anyone that would purchase such a car based upon a REPRESENTATION and pay the sort of money that one of these cars, if real, would command, would have to be out of their mind. As I've said before, without proof-positive documentation, such a car should be regarded as "not authentic".

[Mark #28455]

buyer beware

I agree with you that I would NEVER consider buying such a car without the documentation, just wanted to post that it MAY be possible that more than 2 ZL1 tank stickers may exist.

Mark

[Robert C.]

Re: Car is for sale

I heard that this guy, John, was going to sell the car for $250K, but something happened and the sale didn't go through. If this was a documented real deal car it would be worth much more!

[Dick W.]

Re: buyer beware

At least three. One on a 300hp A/C car. Saw this 15 or so years ago. The owner of the shop that repaired my L/88 when it was wrecked in 1972, had this car for years. He dropped the tank in the 80's to replace it and it did not match the car at all. I have lost track of him and the car.

[Jon H.]

Re: buyer beware

In my opinion the yellow ZL1 we all know of is a legit car. I have seen the tank sticker, documentation, and we all know the history. According to GM records there were two built. In my opinion if there were I don't believe the other one has been accounted for. I don't believe the white one that everyone has accepted as the second ZL1 is it. If there were a second one it would of had to be built after the yellow one and the vin on the white one is an early car. Either Gm records are incorrect or there was another one built that is unaccounted for in my opinion.

[Art A.]

Re: buyer beware

Jonathan, this brings up a qiestion in my mind-----was the white car in question ever owned my Otis Chandler?

Art

[Jon H.]

Re: buyer beware

Yes it was. It was restored by a corvette restoration shop that specializes in building corvettes the way you want them. The car was originaly found by this shop. They advertise the ability to build a car to your specs and it will pass NCRS and Bloomington judging. I also know a lot of people that worked at the plant and have comfirmed from many of them that the yellow one was the first ZL1 they built, not the second. The white car is under VIN 7000 and the yellow one was late in production. I have found no evidence from the plant that a ZL1 was built before the yellow one that we all acknowledge is a real one. I also talked to a few people that remember the white car as being an L-88 originaly and a ZL1 motor was used when it was raced. Just my .02

[Chas Henderson #28127]

Re: buyer beware

My brother in law to be has a green 69 coupe that he told me was the "other" Z. I have seen the car and there is no way it is it. It has a heater and defroster and doesn't have T.I., and all the fenders are flared. It does have a zl1 engine in it. After he bought it - this was quit a few years ago - a man offered him a new 78 pace car just for the engine. He does not believe me. He thinks it real, but I still would like to check out all the numbers just to see what they are and how things match up. I think its a 69 that someone dropped the motor in and used for racing, nothing more.

Chasman

[Art A.]

Re: buyer beware

Jonathan,

The reason I asked is because when I worked for the General, I got a call from a big wig, name withheld intentionally, and was asked to do some research into a White ZL-1 Otis was considering buying. I talked to Odis and his right-hand man, can't recall his name, and they gave me the details of the vehicle and I did as much research as I could. No we didn't have the "build sheets" but I used as much data as we had available and came to the conclusion, and told Otis's RH man, that if I were him I would take the stance------buyer beware!!!!

I could not definitely confirm nor deny its lineage, but told them, if I were them I would pass. But then again I'm not a gazillionair.

Art

[mike cobine]

Re: buyer beware

Dick and company also did the Oklahoma '67 L88 that was in Road and Track back around 1978 timeframe. That car was a definite L88 because it had dual pin brakes and no heater.

Their custom station wagons were always fun to look at prior to the restoration side. They also frequented shows with a rolling chassis, with lots of chrome and a fuellie.

[Joe L.]

Re: buyer beware

Jonathan, et al-----

The "white car" was owned for years by Otis Chandler and resided in his "semi-private" museum in Oxnard, CA. Later, it was sold to Kevin Suydam of Washington state. I believe that he's also sold it now, but I'm not sure.

That car was originally purchased new by a fellow by the name of Jack Cheskaty. Cheskaty, who is still alive (or, at least, was as of recently) has documented that car as the ZL-1 that he originally factory-ordered and purchased from a Chevrolet dealer in Salt Lake City, UT. Cheskaty is a retired Internal Revenue Service commissioner for the Rocky Mountain Region.

Ergo, BOTH of the ZL-1 Corvettes that GM says they built have been accounted for. Presumably, GM knows how many that they built with that option. I mean, if they don't, who would know? However, it's not a "lock". There may be others. When someone shows up with PROOF-POSITIVE DOCUMENTATION of another, then we can start to doubt GM's record-keeping. Until then, they built TWO and those two are accounted for.

[Mark #28455]

what's the earliest date block you've seen?

From what I've heard the Camaro ZL1 blocks are dated Jan 1969. In addition, the earliest 074 heads I've seen were dated December 1968. So how would a VIN #7000 car have a production ZL1 engine?

Sure the original owner swears it's original, that's as good as any paperwork?

Joe, I agree with your earlier posts. Unless there's a paper trail then I wouldn't buy it! Also, they're getting much better at "reproducing" tank sheets from what I've heard. Look at all the "documented 1967 435 cars.

Mark

[Jon H.]

Re: buyer beware

if you talked to the plant manager and engineering people who were there in 1969 the all give the same story. I have personall met with these people as well as with George who ordered the car originaly when he was the plant manager at the corvette plant. I can say with confidence that the yellow one was the first one built. He left shortly after to go to another GM plant and the car sat at the plant because there were no takers at the $10K price tag. It was eventualy sold to a dealership in virginia. There is a possibility that another one was built according to GM records but it would have been after the yellow one. I am well aware of all of the history of the white car, even back to the interview in vette vues magazine which consisted of Dick fernando interviewing Jack about the car. Shortly after Dick found the car and restored it. Also any ZL1 that would have left the factory would have had a black nose stripe as the yellow one would have. It is a mandatory stripe when the RPO ZL1 option was ordered. The white car has a stripe package that never would have left GM. There is no RPO in there the records for any stripe other than the ZL1 stripe. I am going off of credible people who worked in the plant as well as the original owner of the yellow ZL1, George himself.

[John H.]

Re: buyer beware

Jonathan -

George was the Resident Engineer (from Chevrolet Engineering at the Tech Center), not the Plant Manager; Ed Teske was the General Superintendent who ran the plant under Cliff Vaughan (and Lou Biskach before Cliff), who was the Plant Manager over both plants.