Saginaw Grey Iron Article

[Mark G.]

[Roger Legge]

Re: Saginaw Grey Iron Article

Interesting info. Would anyone happen to know, in general, what engine blocks were cast at this foundry? Chevrolet, Pontiac, etc? Just curious ...

Roger

[William C.]

Re: Saginaw Grey Iron Article

All the Chevrolet Smallblocks that went to the Flint engine plant for starters. This is just another piece of history involving the technology transformation of the auto industry. Tha good news is it sounds like the team in Saginaw has managed to stay competitive in the new world.

[Joe L.]

Re: Saginaw Grey Iron Article

Mark-----

WOW! That's very interesting. I've sort of figured for quite some time that Saginaw might be converting to all aluminum castings as cast iron blocks and heads dwindle.

Do you know where the 3800 blocks and heads as well as the GenIII/IV small block cast iron blocks for 6.0L applications will be cast now? Defiance, OH or Toluca, Mexico? Defiance casts the cast iron blocks for many of the 60 degree V-6 ("high value V-6") applications manufactured at Tonawanda as well as the 8.1L big block applications also manufactured at Tonawanda. So, it might be logical for GM to consolidate US-based cast iron pieces there. In fact, Defiance, OH and the other Saginaw foundry ("Casting Technology Center")will be the only cast iron foundries that GM has left in the US. Saginaw Metal Casting, Bedford, IN, and Massena, NY will be all producing aluminum castings only.

[Mark G.]

[Geoff C.]

[Joe L.]

Re: Saginaw Grey Iron Article

Mark------

Yes, I have my first 3800 in a 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP that I bought last year. I love it. It's the first supercharged engine that I've ever owned, too. The 3800 is the oldest engine in GM's entire engine line-up as far as PRODUCTION engines go, but they've got it well refined. As you are probably aware, this engine is a 6 cylinder derivative of the old Buick V-8 and dates back to the 60s as one of GM's first V-6 engines. For years it's been on the Ward's Automotive list as one of the world's "10 best engines". For some reason, GM has never updated this engine with aluminum heads.

The Series III engine in my car is rated at 260 hp. One of the nice things about the Series III supercharged engine is that it can use either regular or premium gasoline. The Series II supercharged engine, which is rated at 240 hp and used in the 2004 Monte Carlo and earlier Grand Prix, is a mandatory premium fuel engine. Some loss of power is experienced with regular fuel with the Series III but, for normal driving, it works just fine. I LOVE the feel of the supercharger coming on. It may not have as much horsepower as many modern V-8s but it FEELS like it has a lot more. Since I bought the car new, I've only put about 6,000 miles on it and 1,000 of those was last week. However, I've averaged 19.5 MPG in that 6,000 miles. I need to have a car that gets reasonable mileage to "off-set" what I'll be getting with the "ZL-1" (when I finally get it done and on the road).

The 3800 supercharged engine will "depart" from the GTP next spring when GM replaces it with the Gen IV 5.3L V-8, the very first use of a Gen III or Gen IV small block in a front wheel drive application. That sounds like a hot-setup to me, too, and it will be rated at 290 hp with displacement-on-demand. I'd find it hard to give up my supercharger, though, so I think that I'll have this car for awhile. The new Grand Prix with the 5.3L will be designated the GXP.

I think that the 3800 engine will be phased out eventually but, supposedly, it should be around until about the end of this decade. The new "high feature" 3.6L DOHC V-6 and the "new" 3500/3900 "high value" 60 degree OHV V-6 will replace it. Very likley, the 3800 supercharged will be the first to go as it's replaced with the 5.3 V-8 and 3.6L V-6. Actually, though, I think that the 3800, as long-in-the-tooth as it is, is going to be a tough act to follow, even for these new V-6 engines. Also, as you may or may not be aware, the 3800 is the only stock-block engine that ever raced at Indy.

I was unaware that the Saginaw Malleable Iron foundry was going to close and thanks for providing that information. That will leave Defiance, OH as GM's only cast iron foundry in the US, although they actually have two side-by-side foundries there----a gray iron and a nodular iron. Do you have any idea what sort of products that Saginaw Malleable Iron produced? I've always wondered what they made there.

[Mark G.]

[Joe L.]

Re: Saginaw Grey Iron Article

Mark-----

Very interesting. I was pretty sure that Saginaw supplied most of the castings for Flint and Romulus engine plants and that Defiance, OH supplied most of the castings for Tonawanda. Since Tonawnada will be the primary location for production of the 3.4/3.5/3.9 "high value" V-6 engines, all of which are cast iron block and high production, it would seem logical that Defiance would become the place where gray cast iron casting would be consolidated. I could never understand, though, why in 1984 GM closed the Tonawanda foundry, co-located with the Tonawanda engine plant, and shifted most casting work for Tonawanda to Definace, OH. But, that's what they did.

I was not aware that Toluca, Mexico did any aluminum castings or that they supplied aluminum block and head castings to St. Catherines. Since St. Catherines is the assembly site for all Corvette and GTO engines, as well as others, I guess that means that the blocks and heads for these engines are cast in Toluca. Once-upon-a-time, the Toluca cast iron castings were unbelievably crude; they looked like the cheap utility castings (e.g. manhole, storm grate, etc.) that come out of India. Really bogus. In the last several years they've come a long way, at least in apparent quality. They still worry me, though.

Of course, these days, if one wants NEW GM Gen I small block engines or major parts thereof, one has to accept the Toluca castings.

[John H.]

Re: Saginaw Grey Iron Article

Joe -

GM just announced yesterday that they're investing another $300 million at the Flint-South engine plant (next to the old Flint V-8 site) that currently makes the Vortec in-line truck/SUV engines, to make one of their "new" V-6 engines; the announcement didn't say which engine it is. GM currently has about seven completely different 60-degree V-6 engines (in addition to the 90-degree 3800 variants) - you'd think they'd start to consolidate them

[Joe L.]

Re: Saginaw Grey Iron Article

John-----

Yes, I heard about that, too. I believe that the engine involved is supposed to be the "Global V-6". GM will have 2 "Global V-6" engines. However, I expect that the one that they're talking about here will be the DOHC 60 degree engine or the so-called "High Feature" V-6. Eventually, this engine will likely replace the 3800 engine across all car lines as GM's "premium V-6". The eventual loss of the 3800 engine for Flint (currently built at the last operating plant of the old "Buick City" complex) might be one of the reasons that GM selected Flint as an additional build site for the "High Feature" V-6. Currently, the engine is manufactured only at St. Catherines, ONT and a plant in Australia. GM may need more production capacity for this engine as the 3800 phases out. But, I'm just speculating here.

There are quite a few V-6 engines currently in GM's line-up. However, consolidation is underway. Here's what I know and/or surmise:

4.3L V-6-----This is the V-6 version of the Gen I small block. It's, of course, a 90 degree design and used only for truck applications. It's still manufactured at Romulus only and will be completely gone very soon. The Flint-built DOHC I-6 and I-5 will replace it.

3800 V-6-----This is has been GM's "Premium V-6" for many years and it's still manufactured at the old Buick City Flint engine plant. It will be phased out by the end of the decade and replaced by the DOHC V-6 "High Feature V-6"

3000 and 3200 V-6-----This is an engine used only in last generation Cadillac CTS and the Saturn L-series. It was replaced in the CTS by the DOHC V-6 and the Saturn L-series is discontinued. This engine is a 60 degree design and it's manufactured in England. I think that this engine is "dead", but I don't know that, for sure.

2800 and 3600 DOHC VVT V-6-----This is the new "High Feature" 60 degree V-6 engine series that will become the Premium V-6 for GM. It will be produced in more variants than the 2800 and 3600, although I think that its architecture will limit it to about 3800 cc. The 3600, currently rated at a maximum of 275 hp, will be increased up to 350 hp, or even greater, with turbosupercharging. If Corvette is ever significantly downsized in weight, this has been mentioned as the engine it will use (see how cleverly I weave Corvette into this otherwise non-Corvette discussion?). This engine is currently manufactured at St. Catherines and Australia and, in the future, I expect at Flint.

3100/3400 V-6----This is the "old generation" 60 degree OHV (pushrod) V-6 with cast iron block and both aluminum and cast iron cylinder heads (aluminum heads only as of the last few years). It's the modern day version of the engine originally developed for the old Chevrolet Citation (X-body) in the late 70's. Originally, it was 2.8 L which later expanded to 3.1 and 3.4. It's currently produced in very high volume at both Tonawanda, NY and Ramos Arizpe, Mexico and has been the "bread-and-butter" V-6 for quite a few years. This engine will be rapidly phased out in favor of the new "high value V-6" described below.

3100/3400/3500/3900 V-6---This is the new "high value", 60 degree OHV pushrod engine. It's roughly based on the old 2800/3100/3400 but, supposedly, all the pieces are new and non-interchangeable with the earlier design. I haven't had a chance to evaluate this claim yet, though. This engine will be built at Tonawanda and Ramos Arizpe, too, and will be the new "bread-and-butter" V-6 for GM. Some versions of this engine will actually have sophisticated new technologies such as "displacement-on-demand" (cylinder deactivation), and variable valve timing. As far as I know, all planned versions of this engine family will have cast iron blocks and aluminum heads. The cast iron blocks for this engine series, being very compact, are actually quite light.

So, in summary, by the end of the decade, GM will have only 2 families of V-6 engines in use world-wide. These will be the "High Feature", DOHC VVT 60 degree V-6 which will account for about 25-30% of V-6 applications and the OHV 60 degree "High Value" V-6 which will account for about 70-75% of V-6 installations.