Big Block Leaf Spring

[Michael H.]

Re: Big Block Leaf Spring

It's HIGHLY unlikely that any cars rolled out of the St. Louis plant with standard springs in the front and F41's in the rear. When a car goes into production, the parts quantity needed to complete the car is already accounted for. If there's a part shortage for a particular cars options, the car never starts production. You have to agree that a major corporation like GM wouldn't be operating like a corner hot dog stand that suddenly finds out their out of buns. It was a lot more sophisticated than that. Also, the workers may not have cared about the finished product but they sure cared about their jobs. When production problems show up in dealers under warranty, they are traced back to assembly and the worker that was involved.

Again, I'm not saying it never happened but odd's are slim that any car ever left with the odd spring package that was discussed here. The other part of the problem is the fact that even if it did happen and that car did have the original 7 leaf rear spring, there's no way to ever prove it and the cars are judged from information in the judging guide. I think it would be impossible to ever convince a judge that the spring is original to that car.

The last problem would be the way the car drove and handled with std springs in the front and F41 in the rear. That car would handle terrible. The roll rate in the rear would be so far off that of the front that it would be scary to drive.

[Terry F.]

Yup! *NM*

[Terry F.]

Yup! *NM*

[Terry F.]

Re: Big Block Leaf Spring

There is no way of proving this, one way or another. I am just saying that it is a real possibility and a reasonable possibility. Taking the spring out of a car that may be original just to meet NCRS standards is not a good reason for me. Preservation of the cars history and the history of corvettes in general is a good reason to leave it in or at least document that it may have come with the car from the factory. If it makes the car dangerous or if the owner simply wants to meet NCRS standards, I believe that is a personal decision. But, I think it should be an informed one. I respect your opinion. Best regards, Terry

[Terry F.]

Re: Big Block Leaf Spring

There is no way of proving this, one way or another. I am just saying that it is a real possibility and a reasonable possibility. Taking the spring out of a car that may be original just to meet NCRS standards is not a good reason for me. Preservation of the cars history and the history of corvettes in general is a good reason to leave it in or at least document that it may have come with the car from the factory. If it makes the car dangerous or if the owner simply wants to meet NCRS standards, I believe that is a personal decision. But, I think it should be an informed one. I respect your opinion. Best regards, Terry

[Michael H.]

Re: Big Block Leaf Spring

Terry,

I partially agree with your thinking on this but if we accept every odd item or part that is on a nearly 40 year old car as being original, we would have quite the assortment of weird cars to judge today. I never said it absolutely couldn't have happened but it's just not at all likely. For the last 40 years, parts of these cars have been switched from one car to another and today, we really have no way to determine what is real and what isn't. You would have to agree, the NCRS would have to draw the line somewhere and if there's absolutely zero documentation on this particular car to back up what is claimed, there's really no choice but to deduct points for a non correct spring. Think about this. In about 1971-72, these cars were at their bottom as far as interest and value and more of them were apart or customized than were together. Think about the Corvette swap meets that started in about 1973, when people started rounding up parts to put many of these cars back together again. The mixture of non original parts being installed has been going on for over 30 years so today, you just can't look at a car and deduct that ALL the parts are original. There are also bizarre stories from current owners that knew the guy next door that was married to Betty Lou who's 2nd husband took delivery of this 63 with a 427 in it and he had every shread of documentation etc etc. See where this goes? The spring issue isn't near as bizarre but it fits into the same category.

I had a feeling from about the time of Jerry's 2nd post on this issue that he was just fishing and not really wanting the information that was provided for him by all the members. I believe he was trying to somehow convince everyone that because of the way the manual was written, he could use the 7 leaf spring and get full points for it. I feel his real issue wasn't about weather or not the car could have been assembled with the 7 leaf spring as much as it was about weather or not he could convince the organization that they shouldn't deduct points because the Judging Guide isn't specific about the term "standard". A weak and pointless debate as far as I'm concerned.

Here's what I would do. Purchase and install the accepted 9 leaf spring but save the 7 leaf spring. That way, he has the best of both and still hasn't eliminated any options. His car will drive and handle much better and if, in the future, NCRS discovers that, yes indeed, blue 66 coupes with power steering and 4-way flashers that were assembled on Thursdays had the F41 rear spring, he can reinstall it.

[Michael H.]

Re: Big Block Leaf Spring

Terry,

I partially agree with your thinking on this but if we accept every odd item or part that is on a nearly 40 year old car as being original, we would have quite the assortment of weird cars to judge today. I never said it absolutely couldn't have happened but it's just not at all likely. For the last 40 years, parts of these cars have been switched from one car to another and today, we really have no way to determine what is real and what isn't. You would have to agree, the NCRS would have to draw the line somewhere and if there's absolutely zero documentation on this particular car to back up what is claimed, there's really no choice but to deduct points for a non correct spring. Think about this. In about 1971-72, these cars were at their bottom as far as interest and value and more of them were apart or customized than were together. Think about the Corvette swap meets that started in about 1973, when people started rounding up parts to put many of these cars back together again. The mixture of non original parts being installed has been going on for over 30 years so today, you just can't look at a car and deduct that ALL the parts are original. There are also bizarre stories from current owners that knew the guy next door that was married to Betty Lou who's 2nd husband took delivery of this 63 with a 427 in it and he had every shread of documentation etc etc. See where this goes? The spring issue isn't near as bizarre but it fits into the same category.

I had a feeling from about the time of Jerry's 2nd post on this issue that he was just fishing and not really wanting the information that was provided for him by all the members. I believe he was trying to somehow convince everyone that because of the way the manual was written, he could use the 7 leaf spring and get full points for it. I feel his real issue wasn't about weather or not the car could have been assembled with the 7 leaf spring as much as it was about weather or not he could convince the organization that they shouldn't deduct points because the Judging Guide isn't specific about the term "standard". A weak and pointless debate as far as I'm concerned.

Here's what I would do. Purchase and install the accepted 9 leaf spring but save the 7 leaf spring. That way, he has the best of both and still hasn't eliminated any options. His car will drive and handle much better and if, in the future, NCRS discovers that, yes indeed, blue 66 coupes with power steering and 4-way flashers that were assembled on Thursdays had the F41 rear spring, he can reinstall it.

[Terry F.]

I agree with you.

I agree with you and I would probably pull the spring if it road like crap and I would just save it in my garage somewhere. Finding a nice original looking spring might be difficult. Point wise, he may come out the same (repro 9 leaf vs. the 7 leaf). Appreciate all the coments and conversation. Thanks, Terry

[Terry F.]

I agree with you.

I agree with you and I would probably pull the spring if it road like crap and I would just save it in my garage somewhere. Finding a nice original looking spring might be difficult. Point wise, he may come out the same (repro 9 leaf vs. the 7 leaf). Appreciate all the coments and conversation. Thanks, Terry

[Jerry M.]

Re: Big Block Leaf Spring

Michael, I don't know who are but I can pretty much tell who you think you are. I posted a legitamate question after researching it and now you with your psuedo psychology wants to explain my motivation. Let me analyze you. I think your purpose for posting is to convince yourself that you know all there is to know about restoration and judging.
Let me tell you something you don't know. My "standard" with 7 leaf handles just as good as my REAL F 41. What a shock for a mind reader huh? I have been working on these resto's for 30 years. I judge C 2's at the chapter meets. I just wanted to shake the trees a little to see if there were any serious cases where this may have occured before I purchased a 9 leaf. Bet that's a shock to think I was really searching for truth. My posts were written so as to get all aspects and see what is really out there.
Maybe you can tell what color my socks are today. Or maybe too weak and pointles for an self important person like you.
Jerry

[Jerry M.]

Re: Big Block Leaf Spring

Michael, I don't know who are but I can pretty much tell who you think you are. I posted a legitamate question after researching it and now you with your psuedo psychology wants to explain my motivation. Let me analyze you. I think your purpose for posting is to convince yourself that you know all there is to know about restoration and judging.
Let me tell you something you don't know. My "standard" with 7 leaf handles just as good as my REAL F 41. What a shock for a mind reader huh? I have been working on these resto's for 30 years. I judge C 2's at the chapter meets. I just wanted to shake the trees a little to see if there were any serious cases where this may have occured before I purchased a 9 leaf. Bet that's a shock to think I was really searching for truth. My posts were written so as to get all aspects and see what is really out there.
Maybe you can tell what color my socks are today. Or maybe too weak and pointles for an self important person like you.
Jerry

[Michael H.]

Re: F-40.5

Jerry,

I reread all of your posts and I'm still convinced that I'm correct. You asked a question and got the very same response from some of the most knowledgeable people in the Corvette restoration hobbey in the country today. I still feel that you were intentionally trying to confuse the issue when you kept trying to refer to the differences between standard suspension and standard suspension for big block. That was and is a pointless issue. You were slowly moving the conversation away from what was "typically" installed on these cars, to what you wanted the judging guide to mean. I don't think there's any chance that the Judging Guide will ever agree with your 7 leaf spring. After the answers came in and there was really no question in anyones mind about what was correct, you finally stated that you were going to keep the 7 leaf spring in the car which tells me that this was your intention all along.

All of the people that reply to questions on this post do it to help others with their projects. We get nothing out of it and we want nothing from it. It's a hobby and helping others is the point of it all. There's nothing more to it. I do it for the love of the cars and I'll keep doing it if I happen to know something that someone else doesn't.

You asked our opinion and you got it. What you do with your car is absolutely your business. No one said you HAD to change the spring. Just don't try to change the rules to fit your car.

Michael

[Michael H.]

Re: F-40.5

Jerry,

I reread all of your posts and I'm still convinced that I'm correct. You asked a question and got the very same response from some of the most knowledgeable people in the Corvette restoration hobbey in the country today. I still feel that you were intentionally trying to confuse the issue when you kept trying to refer to the differences between standard suspension and standard suspension for big block. That was and is a pointless issue. You were slowly moving the conversation away from what was "typically" installed on these cars, to what you wanted the judging guide to mean. I don't think there's any chance that the Judging Guide will ever agree with your 7 leaf spring. After the answers came in and there was really no question in anyones mind about what was correct, you finally stated that you were going to keep the 7 leaf spring in the car which tells me that this was your intention all along.

All of the people that reply to questions on this post do it to help others with their projects. We get nothing out of it and we want nothing from it. It's a hobby and helping others is the point of it all. There's nothing more to it. I do it for the love of the cars and I'll keep doing it if I happen to know something that someone else doesn't.

You asked our opinion and you got it. What you do with your car is absolutely your business. No one said you HAD to change the spring. Just don't try to change the rules to fit your car.

Michael

[Jerry M.]

Re: F-40.5 Michael

Michael,
Sadly you are wrong again. I wasn't trying to move the answers in any direction. I am intelligent enough to know this forum will not change a judging manual. Appearently only you think this forum is a caldren for change. It doesn't work that way.

What this forum does do however is allow members to put out thought provoking questions and statements to find where the truth is on a given subject. If one only put out thoughts and questions that would make you happy then I fear this would be a rather one dimensional location. You see it's not your responsibility to be the content police here and assume to know everyone's motives. If you do not like the path a subject is taking then just go the next one where you can play Karnac and determine their motivation.

When I questioned why the judging manual implies there are only 2 suspension combinations when there are easily 3 and maybe 4 that is a fact not an opinion. I truly wondered if anyone had any documented cases of these irregularities.
If not then I think Joe gave me the most logical answer. GM went to 7 leaf as a service replacement on all springs (using your theory it must have caused a bunch of wrecks) about 15 years ago. That being the case then I can use the 7 leaf and take a partial deduct on originality because it is a service replacement spring.

Something I had not know before my post, but I am sure you did.

As for your reply "All of the people that reply". How do you know why they do what they do??? Karnac again??? Do they get your clearance first??

I am grateful to everyone here that tried to help me make a decision. I wanted to hear from the experts and the not so expert. The info I received did help me. I don't remember anyone else thinking I had this great JM conspiracy going. They just tried to help solve my problem.

Sorry guys don't mean to blather forever. Thanks

[Jerry M.]

Re: F-40.5 Michael

Michael,
Sadly you are wrong again. I wasn't trying to move the answers in any direction. I am intelligent enough to know this forum will not change a judging manual. Appearently only you think this forum is a caldren for change. It doesn't work that way.

What this forum does do however is allow members to put out thought provoking questions and statements to find where the truth is on a given subject. If one only put out thoughts and questions that would make you happy then I fear this would be a rather one dimensional location. You see it's not your responsibility to be the content police here and assume to know everyone's motives. If you do not like the path a subject is taking then just go the next one where you can play Karnac and determine their motivation.

When I questioned why the judging manual implies there are only 2 suspension combinations when there are easily 3 and maybe 4 that is a fact not an opinion. I truly wondered if anyone had any documented cases of these irregularities.
If not then I think Joe gave me the most logical answer. GM went to 7 leaf as a service replacement on all springs (using your theory it must have caused a bunch of wrecks) about 15 years ago. That being the case then I can use the 7 leaf and take a partial deduct on originality because it is a service replacement spring.

Something I had not know before my post, but I am sure you did.

As for your reply "All of the people that reply". How do you know why they do what they do??? Karnac again??? Do they get your clearance first??

I am grateful to everyone here that tried to help me make a decision. I wanted to hear from the experts and the not so expert. The info I received did help me. I don't remember anyone else thinking I had this great JM conspiracy going. They just tried to help solve my problem.

Sorry guys don't mean to blather forever. Thanks