Painting A Vintage Packard

[Joe C.]

OKAY, I know that this is gonna piss some of you off, but I only want to pass on some info that some of you might not be aware of. If some of you take offense, then so be it. I can only say, that if anyone takes the time, money and trouble to resurrect an automobile that was ready for the boneyard; maybe somebody who only wants to freshen up their prize with a new coat of paint. Somebody that truly wants that monument to stand for a long time. Someone who wants to take pride in what he or she has accomplished.
I have spoken to some folks who are involved with the "Pebble Beach" crowd. The people who take pride in showing off some of the finest examples of American and European engineering and sculpture on the planet. Here is an excerpt of my correspondence with a member of the judging team with the Packard Club, which was founded in 1953:

Are there any requirements concerning paint type used in a restoration. If a car was originally painted in nitrocellulose lacquer, must it be restored with the same. Also, can base coat/clearcoat systems be used.
The above refers to a car from the mid thirties, to be subjected to Concours judging. Can you please explain the criteria that the judges use determining points deductions. Also, if the particular model was known to posess certain flaws in the paint, is that expected to be duplicated?
Thank you.

Sincerely,
Joe

Hi Joe,

Sorry for the delay in answering you I was working to get my 56 Caribbean
out of the paint shop. ( We used base coat/clear coat and we have an
award winning Buick with single stage enamel/hardener)

Nitrocellulose is available - not cheap! Most painters do not want to use
it or acrylic lacquer. Supposedly the thinners are not as good as they
once were.

There is no problem using single stage enamel or base/clear coat. Do not
put flaws back in! I would advise a factory color that was available. If
you are after a custom job make sure that you can document it!

[mikemccagh]

Re: Painting A Vintage Packard

joe: doubt your post will irritate any ncrs members--it didn't me. if i ever get a desire to own a packard, i'll two stage it. for my vettes, i'll stick with lacquer which i believe has a different, discernable appearance than that of the urethanes. always enjoy learning what the other car clubs are doing. regards, mike

[John M.]

Re: Painting A Vintage Packard

Joe,
I don't think that you are going to piss anyone off. We all know that modern paint systems are far superior to Lacquer in both durability and gloss. We also know that a lot of these cars were not that perfect in the body and could stand some blocking and and straightening. A lot of owners chose to restore their cars in this manner and are quite proud of their cars, and rightfully so.
However, to try to equate Concours judging with the type of judging that is done at NCRS meets, does a dis-service to what NCRS is all about. NCRS judging is not about who has the prettiest, most perfect car like Concours judging is.
NCRS judging is also not about cars competing against each other, but against a standard. There can only be one winner in each class at a Concour, but the entire feild can achive a top flight at a NCRS meet if the quality is there.
NCRS will,hopefully, allways judge cars against a standard to reflects the way the cars were originally built, and this makes our judging stand out from all the show and shine and Concours type of car shows.
There are many of us that have intrest in judged cars and modified cars, and we understand the difference. I paint in both lacquer and in urethane, but I use each one for a reason. I understand the standard for paint appearance and do not quibble with the deduct for obvious bc/cc paint systems. Everyone has the option when they paint their car, to decide which path to go down, but an awful lot of people complain when they get dinged for their choices. I make the decision to make even my lacquer paint slicker than original, but I am aware of what the potential point loss is for doing this. We all make decisions that we know will affect the possible point deducts on our cars, but we make those decisions willingly and with good technical data that allows us to make informed choices.

Regards, John McGraw

[Mike Cobine]

Re: Painting A Vintage Packard

Joe,

It is simple. NCRS judges based on how a car left the factory. Pebble Beach judges on the best possible example that could ever exist, and probably didn't exist except in the mind of the current owner, and looks better than everyone else at the show.

If you look at the letter back to you, you see an important difference:

There is no problem using single stage enamel or base/clear coat. Do not
put flaws back in! I would advise a factory color that was available. If
you are after a custom job make sure that you can document it!



He advises using a factory color. NCRS advises using ONLY the color that was on that particular car. Pebble Beach would let you take a car and paint it any color you like as long as it was possible to get. NCRS requires that 1974 paint code 980 be painted with only that color, not red, silver, blue or black, even if you hate orange.

He advises not to put the flaws in. Yet if you notice in another question on this list, the discussion about the dimple is a flaw that is preserved instead of removed.

Two different worlds. Two different standards. You can't apply advice for one to the other.

[Joe C.]

(Message Deleted by Poster)

Message Deleted by Poster

[Jack H.]

FYI

One of our Rocky Mtn Chapter founding members took top honors for his Auburn Boatail Speedster at Pebble Beach at the meet following our Monterey National Convention. When he spoke to us in a chapter meeting, he mentioned how pleasantly surprized the judges were at Pebble Beach with his restoration and he credited what he learned at NCRS doing a factory concours restoration of his Corvette for the approach he took with his Auburn and his Cord in their concours d'elegance campaigns.

Yep, the two forms of concours are different, but they're similar too....

[Michael H.]

Re: Painting A Vintage Packard

Joe,

I've read your posts several times now and I must admit, I really don't know what to say. The only thing I can get out of all of this is that you are a bit confused about the very origin and meaning of NCRS. I understand what you are saying about the perfectly restored Packards and other vintage cars and I'm sure there's even a place for perfectly over restored Corvettes but that place is not in our organization. Since the beginning, NCRS has promoted restoring these cars back to what they were when they were new and hopefully in the process, we learn more with each restoration. There are several other Corvette organizations that judge differently and actually deduct points for poor body fit but that's a different game. Taking a correctly restored Corvette to one of those events would be like bringing a basketball to a base ball game and the same would be true the other way around. As for your statement about what they looked like when they were new, I can tell you with certainty, the poor body fit was not an issue then and isn't today.

As far as your statement about what "the big boys" consider important, I really don't think anyone here cares. There's a big difference between most of the NCRS members and the Pebble Beach crowd. We restore our cars to make us happy and they restore their cars, or have them restored, to show them off. It's more of a status thing for them and more of a "look what I did" thing for us. We drive our cars to the events instead of having the butler make all the arrangements to get the car to the next show. We're the guys out in the garage until 3:00 AM with the greasy hands because we're in it for a totally different reason.

As for your "move this club out of the stone age" statement, I think you may have a little problem convincing everyone of that too. I believe the members are quite content with the way things have gone over the years and the direction that it's moving in is that of choice. We actually want our cars to look just exactly like they did when new. The change that you are talking about would be going backwards 25 years. If the correct original look isn't for everyone, that's fine but don't try to convinve everyone else that they should make their cars look like a Rolls Royce. That's a different club.

Hanson

[Mike M.]

Re: Painting A Vintage Packard

atta boy, mike. mike.

[Terry D.]

Re: Painting A Vintage Packard

Joe
Maybe you should look into a different Corvette Club. There are plenty of them out there. I myself belong to a few. I appreciate the NCRS for what it is. I think each club has its pros and cons, you have to decide which one best suits your needs.

You state you don't like threads that criticize you yet you post threads that do the very same thing to the NCRS, you can't have it both ways. Just my 2 cents.
Terry

[Michael W.]

Re: Painting A Vintage Packard

If you really meant 'beleaguering' (sic) then yes, you're doing a wonderful (but unsolicited) job of that. If you meant 'belabouring' then you're also doing a wonderful and unsolicited job. I would wonder why you choose to do either.

I think the "Big Boys' would expect you to know the difference or otherwise perhaps permanently relegate you to the stone age (with the rest of us po'boy iggerants)

If you're that frustrated with the NCRS, here's your hat, please don't let the door hit you from behind as you leave.

Bub-bye now!

[Don Barnes]

Sell the Vette and Buy a Packard go to the beach!

This is the way NCRS is and why change it if it ain't for you then move on to the beach if that is more your style .just my 2 cents P.S. if you get a Packard and join the crowd you better have alot more then 2 cents after the restoration is done or you will be shamed as someone that doesn't come from money.Don't forget the Grey Puopon .

[Wayne W.]

Re: Ugly Baby

We know our baby is ugly, but we think he is beautiful. No cosmetic surgury is needed. But,we are showing our ugly attitude to boot.