1968 Matching numbers ???

[Tony Ecock #41688]

New to hobby, would appreciate some expert advice, don't laugh too hard at my ignorance. I have found a beautiful 68 that is represented to me as having matching numbers and selling for a premium price -- but it turns out the VIN number on the car is different than the VIN number on the engine by exactly 1 digit -- 1 has a 6 and the other has a 9. The seller says this is probably a stamping mistake done at the factory and that the engine is original as far as he knows. He also said that the engine could be easily stamped with the right number. The seller also said "what are the chances that they procured the engine exactly 3000 units from the original" or that if someone was trying to restamp it they would make this obvious mistake. The seller seems very trustworthy, fellow NCRS, but someone else told me to be careful and check the numbers with a Mr. Al Grenning who advertises in Driveline. I could not find his ad in the latest issue, does anyone have a way to contact Mr. Grenning?

I have ordered the NCRS books but they will take some time to get here. In the meantime, any advice appreciated. Thank you very much.

[Jim T.]

Re: 1968 Matching numbers ???

Having a original owner 68 I have never checked the engine stamping to verify it is correctly stamped on the original motor. I am interested now to verify.

[Rob M.]

Re: 1968 Matching numbers ???

Tony,

Keep in mind that you have to pay for the assumed number matching now but it is unclear if the next buyer (who is going to buy from you) will have these questions as well and might not being willing to pay the extra because the number matching is not absolutely clear...

greetings,
Rob.

[Chuck S.]

Re: 1968 Matching numbers ???

Tony, considering the fact that the six and nine can be identical when one is inverted, I would say there is a strong probability that you are looking at a "factory anomoly". The odds of finding a replacement engine with such a VIN stamp is astronomical, and it is not an error a restamper would intend to make. The question is...if a restamper did make such an error (Aw, FUDGE!), would the owner want redo it AGAIN? Or, would he try to just squeeze it past as an anomoly. Errors occurred in engine stamps, but typically they were discovered and corrected, and not too prettily.

HOWEVER, I would definitely contact Al Grenning as you said; I wouldn't want to find out later it was bogus and have to beat myself up for not being sure. Do an archive search on "Al Grenning", use "all terms" starting with the most recent archive...I think at least his snail mail address has been posted. Maybe someone that knows his email address or telephone number can email it to you.

The seller's statement that the engine "could be easily stamped with the right number" is incorrect. It is not easy to make it look original enough to pass judging scrutiny, and he either doesn't know better or he is preying on your lack of knowledge by overstating the case. Hmmmm...Seller sounds motivated...Forget "trustworthy"; go for the jugular!

[Robert C.]

Re: 1968 Matching numbers ???

I would check a couple of other things; Check the engine casting date and see if it matches the vin birthday date (corvette birthday book), the build date on the trim tag, and the date on the stamp pad.If all these dates match up good and are within approx. one month period or so then I would have to check the vin number stamp on the transmission case. See if the same mistake was made there. If the same "9" is stamped there, its almost sure its the original motor. If the "6" is on the tranny stamping, I would be suspect about an incorrect restamp. Other questions; Are the "broach marks" there on the stamp pad? Is there any paperwork with the car ie; warenty book with protecto plate,or a tank stickr, build sheet.
You may want an experienced NCRS judge to view the car before you buy.
Vin numbers can be off, although usually its the last number of the vin where a #1 instead of a #2 is present. I have seen these anomalys on unresrored cars.

[Larry S.]

Re: 1968 Matching numbers ???

I agree with checking the date codes.At least if the date codes are out of range you could easely disprove thats its a correct motor.What do the documants with the car have as a id number the one stamped on the motor or the one stamped on the vin plate (Does it have documents?)

I can tell you if I was ever to purchase a high dollar vette I would only purchase something that has been top flighted and request to see the judging sheets.

Is this a high HP motor?

[Robert E.]

Re: 1968 Matching numbers ???

Tony, Al Grenning helped me out recently. He'll want several high resolution pictutes of the stamp pad. His email address is algrenning@aol.com

Robert Eisner #41801

[Tony Ecock #41688]

BEWARE RED 68 EBAY FRAUD

Thank you everyone, I have received so many helpful emails and calls on this from people around the country. What a great community. Everyone has advised me NOT TO BUY THE CAR -- as someone said "this is a cloud that will follow you around as long as you own it and especially when you try to sell it and get back that premium price you are paying." Another person who restored over 500 cars said "I would not touch that car with a 10 foot pole." "The burden of proof will be with you and you will never be able to prove it"

Here is what I took away from the many emails and conversations:

1) A car with a mismatched VIN could still win NCRS Top Flight but not Bloomington Gold (differing opinions on that last point).

2) It is difficult to change an engine VIN and you could tell from there forward under high resolution that it had been changed because the tools and therefore markings in 1968 were characteristically different

3) You can send a high resolution picture of the engine stamping to Mr. Al Grenning for investigation. I offered that to the seller and wouldn't you know, he declined!

4) No one thought it was likely that the mismatched VIN was an anomoly. I was told the VINs that begin with a 6 correspond to those made in December while the ones that begin with a 9 were made in April. According to this, the engine was assembled 4 months after the car was assembled, so it probably isn't original. It is hard to explain how the last 3 digits are the same though.

The seller told me he had a "picture of the tank sticker" but not the actual tank sticker. I asked him to send this to me and again, wouldn't you know it, he declined.

The car was a Red 1968 427 400 automatic on ebay ending May 23, the VIN is 194678S406003, the seller is from Canada, his handle is vetrag.

Buyer beware. This is the second car that I have looked at on ebay that has been misrepresented as having an original matching numbers motor. Both were very high priced cars that were touted as being NCRS etc. One is still currently for sale but I only have the word of someone that it was restamped.

[Warren F.]

Re: BEWARE RED 68 EBAY FRAUD

Tony:

That is the same seller, who listed some ZL1, LS6 aluminum heads for sale on another Corvette forum. I sent him an e-mail stating I would purchase them.... never heard a word back, and they were never advertised again. Beware, for sure.