Roy: A Reply "YES" Response Below

[Joe C.]

Roy:

Again, the website will not let me post a reply, so I must post as a new submission

What about the fellow who drives his car to the event AND gets the 88 points for the engine stamp pad. Those 88 points might just be the difference that puts a certain car in the 97-100 percentile, and therefore eligible for further judging as a Duntov candidate.

The real point that I wanted to make is, that lots of cars are "enhanced", by adding options that are not detectable (i.e. air conditioning, p/w, p/s, p/b, redline tires, off road exhaust), and so these cars breeze thru the judging process. There are a whole lot of Top Flite, and Duntov cars out there that are downright UGLY. So why not have a seperate class for these "enhanced" cars. They would still have to be prepared in accordance with the TIM&JG, and judged to the same standards. The only difference would have to be, that the owner must STATE that the car was "enhanced/altered". If the owner does not do so, and tries to represent his car as "original", and the judging process reveals this, then the car should be immediately disqualified. There are three areas that are most sensitive, and correctly, subject to the highest scrutiny:

1. Color/trim change
2. Engine/horsepower change
3. Addition of sidepipes

If any one of these three items have been tampered with, then it will almost always jump out to the trained eye.

[Joe R.]

Re: The reason for the NCRS!

Joe,

This club is called "The National Corvette Restorers Society"

The NCRS is dedicated to the RESTORATION of CORVETTES--NOT anything else!

If people want to customize or fake Corvettes they should start a club called:

"The National Corvette RIP OFF Society"

It seems some of the people in this club should break off and be members!

Lets get back to the FOCUS of the NCRS and that is the RESTORATION of CORVETTES.

Come on people! PUT IT TO BED!

That's my two cents and I've been here a long time.

JR

[Clem Z.]

Re: Roy: A Reply "YES" Response Below

that is like aluminum wheels,since i have owned corvettes since 1959 i never saw a mid year corvette with them back in the 60s and i went to a lot of corvette events.between 1964 and 1967 there were 3836 corvette from the factory with aluminum wheels which is about 4% of the total production of 96,450. what is the % now at the judging events?

[mikemccagh]

Re: Roy: A Reply "YES" Response Below

Clem: here i go again screwing up the statistics . 100% of our 64-67 midyears have K/O or B/O. they'd be on our 63's too if they'd been available from the factory with em. regards, mike

[Michael W.]

A gentle suggestion-

and please don't take offense.

Your most recent posts suggest that you (as well as another frequent poster) have little or no real-life hands-on experience with the Flight judging process, and as a result you have dreamed up the 'need' for all sorts of modifications to the system and standards.

How about you do like the rest of us; get your education the old fashioned way, (ie not on the internet) and then come back with your critisms if you still feel they are valid.

I'm sure the bandwidth costs of this site are considerable. I am getting tired of seeing my membership dues wasted on this non-issue.

[Mark Milner]

Re: The reason for the NCRS!

Where were you in March 1998 and Fall 1998 when The Corvette Restorer published:

"For instance, the following examples represent restorations and are not considered counterfeiting

- Repainting an original black Corvette with black lacquer paint.

- Installing accurately reproduced black vinyl seat covers in a car that left the factory with a standard black interior.

- Stamping a 435 hp block to conform to the date/serial number of the original 435 hp Corvette in which it is to be installed."

Most seem to be focused only on the 435 hp cars, but the same happens with 300 hp cars, 350 hp cars, and so on.

Back then, I thought THAT was a rip off, but there it is, in NCRS black and white as being "RESTORATION" and it was stated by the "keeper of the standard".

If you go to this web site's URL for the awards, you find that the engine example has been removed.

Yet according to several on here, NCRS can and does take all information printed and can use that in judging.

So is restamping a replacement block for a 250 hp midyear restoration or counterfeiting?




Awards - scroll down to Restoration

[Chuck S.]

Good Say, Mikey...

Whew...I am tired of this, too. Roy Sinor has had to say more in the last three days than I have heard/read from him in the last ten years. Thanks for your contributions, Roy.

[Gary J.]

Why Enchanced.....????

Why would anyone want to add A/C, power steering, etc. to car just to show (other than monetary gain). Are they not thinking about the extra components, hoses, compressor, belts plus power steering pump and all the hardware to get detail and right just to show NCRS. Think of all the points you could loose if the hardware is not right and the tight quarters you have to work around cleaning. Lord help you when you start to PV the thing. More things to go wrong. I would take a no option car any day to clean, get ready, and PV any day!

Gary
#3503

[Dave S.]

Re: A gentle suggestion-

Mike,
I'm with you 100%. I've been watching all this in amazement. Until someone goes through the judging process either as an owner or experienced they really don't understand the nuiances of how it all works. In most cases it takes a few tries to get a good feel. Lets see some cars on the judging field and then we'll see how smart everyone is. Lets move on.

[John H.]

Re: Why Enchanced.....????

Someone has this thing all confused - a car loaded with options doesn't have any advantage whatsoever in judging over a no-option car; it actually makes it tougher due to the added parts, bits and pieces that will be judged. NCRS could care less how heavily the car was optioned or how much paperwork it has.

We have (and have had, for a LONG time) a very simple, understandable judging standard - as the car was delivered following normal dealer prep, exclusive of any dealer or purchaser-inspired additions, deletions, or changes; what's so complicated about that? The purpose of NCRS Flight Judging is to determine how closely a vehicle appears to conform to that standard.

This is NOT rocket science, in spite of those who would make it seem so

[Everett Ogilvie]

A less gentle suggestion-

I couldn't agree more - the recent, long-winded debates are ridiculous. As many of us have stated - the Standard has not changed, however Judging has evolved and it will continue to evolve. Please refer to my post of approximately one week ago "The NCRS Standard". Too many folks participate in and do well in our Flight program for me to believe there are major issues in NCRS. For some inexplicable reason it has become in vogue these past weeks to bash NCRS on this Board - give it a rest.

[Chuck S.]

I Dunno, Gary...

Adding AC to a non-optioned car might begin to sound pretty attractive in Texas starting about May through September. And, then if you have a C3 with those big fat tires on the front, you might begin to think you're schmuck for trying to horse that thing around in small parking lots without power steering. Power windows?...Only a girl would want those anyway ( No rocks, only kidding).

Besides, as you said, adding stuff doesn't help you in the judging game...it only gives you more areas to possibly lose points. I personally wouldn't do it to an original car (particularly AC); I think I would have to trade it for something that would make life more comfortable for me. But, if you don't have the tank sticker...who's to know? It all depends on your personal character and integrity.

Here's some borderline cases for you to consider: A repro battery (R89W) is available for 70s. But, the repro battery is the R89W, which is equivalent to the (T60) optional heavy-duty battery, and only 165 units (0.9%) were so equipped. Can an owner, in good conscience, use the repro battery knowing there is probably no chance his car originally had the T60 battery? Why not, I don't see a problem...it could have been. The same thing goes for the P02 wheel covers; without a tank sticker to keep you somewhat honest, and assuming the original wheels have been lost, what's to keep you from deciding either for or against (depends on your preference) the P02 wheel covers? I might be willing to take some liberty there; I personally prefer the trim rings and rally caps. Only the General and former owners know for sure; the General ain't talking and most former owners are gone or can't remember.

NCRS makes no effort, for obvious reasons, to insure that these cars are equipped with the same options they came with from St. Louis. Judges must judge whats in front of them. But, if you screw up and don't get your AC i's dotted, and PS t's crossed, then they will make the appropriate deductions. You will have a more comfortable car, and probably a SLIGHTLY more valuable car (unless it's a 72 LT1).

I don't personally condone this upgrading, because you can be fairly sure the car never had these options (who takes them OFF?), and it is contrary to what NCRS represents.

[Chuck S.]

Easy Answer...

Mark, if you take your restamped replacement block (correctly dated of course) for judging, and it successfully passes scrutiny, it's "restoration". Actually, you don't even have to be completely successful in deception for it to be called restoration. You will receive points according the areas Roy mentioned earlier. The terminology "counterfeit" is not used in NCRS judging to my knowledge.

If you then take your Top Flight certificate, and try to sell the car representing the engine as original, it's "counterfeiting" and fraud.

[Dick W.]

Re: Easy Answer...

There is at least one 250 hp "restamp" out there. Rod through the side, beyond brazing a patch on it (yes, that does happen. I have seen two 427's and one Hemi with the side patched).

[Todd H 26112]

Nicely researched and well stated

what more can I say?