Is this legal? An eBay Story.

[Kevin Whiteley]

This post refers to eBay Item 2416772686. The ad says that the car is titled from the frame VIN but the body belongs to a 1975 Corvette (supported from the picture). Is this legal?

I'm sure all states are different, but I thought the body, with the actual VIN plate is what the state titles.

P.S. I'm not bidding on this item!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2416772686

[Mike Yager]

Re: Is this legal? An eBay Story.

I would say it is not legal. You would have a lot of explaining to do if a police officer were to stop you and check your registration against the VIN tag. I don't recall if the VIN is on the driver's side dash on a '75 but they are put there to make it easy for the police to do this kind of verification. If the police cannot match the VIN to the registration during a traffic stop, they will assume the vehicle is stolen and the person driving the car will most likely be arrested.

This whole thing looks fishy to me. The seller has no feedback on ebay. Its hard for me to believe people would bid on something like this.

It seems to me it would have been pretty simple to retitle the car with the VIN on the body. All you would need is a police officer or other authorized person to verify the VIN on the body.

[Joe L.]

Re: Is this legal? An eBay Story.

Kevin-----

The frame "VIN" is not a VIN, at all. It's a VIN DERIVATIVE. I really doubt that any state would title a car from a VIN derivative stamping found in an obscure and extremely difficult-to-see frame stamping. Anyone that purchases this car is asking for a PACK of trouble.

[Paul L.]

Re: Is this legal? An eBay Story.

In my opinion the seller and/or buyer face a dilemma. In my neck of the woods (Canada) the numbers on the frame/engine/transmission are not relevant. The VIN on the driver's windshield post is what matters. So unless the seller has the title for the 1975 body, and is registered as such, then this vehicle is not likely to hit the road legally. The 1969 title is drawn from the former body and the notion that it is derived from the frame is...at best a play on words. Those who are bidding are probably viewing it as a parts car.

[George Romano]

That would be an expensive parts car. *NM*

[Jack H.]

What's the problem?????

Seller says he has clear title to the car. Also, he makes disclosure this is a 'put together' car with frame and body having different 'numbers'.... Says he's from Ohio, so I'd guess the laws of the State of Ohio apply to the car's current title.

He does NOT say that the clear title he's passing with the vehicle isn't some form of State issued title with a State issued VIN of some sort. At NCRS, all we care about when judging a Corvette is that it have a legitimate title/VIN. These can either be based on the car's original manufacturer supplied VIN or any 'State/Federal' entity recognized to have title/VIN authority.

Problem the subsequent owner would have with this car during Flight, is defining 'what' it is for the judging teams to work from.... As best I can tell, it is NOT a fully legitimate '69 nor is it a fully legitimate '75 and therefore it will take MAJOR deduction(s) no matter how the owner declares it.

These are the 'toughie' cars to judge! Everyone on the team from the Team Leader on down has to be swinging on the same vine in terms of what SINGLE model year and option configuration the vehicle is being presented as so it can be judged according to a SINGLE set of standards....

Went through a similar cluster (*&^ with one of the 'hybrid' cars once where the Team Leader told instructed the judges to roll the numbers each conceivable way and pick the view that gave the owner the best outcome. This was a MESS!!!!

Chassis folks decided it was 'best' to view the car as this MY/configuration, the Mechanical folks decided it was 'best' to select another MY/configuration, same for interior. I threw up my hands, and appealed to the meet judging chairman--this approach made absolutely no sense!!!!

We weren't judging a car, we were judging pieces of a car! It's up to the owner of the car to declare what in heck it is, the meet judging chairman to accept/reject the car, and to properly affix a window plaque that defines exactly what it is that ALL the judges are looking at and ruling on.

'Mutter' ensued between the meet judging chairman and the team leader.... I guess they didn't expect a lowly team judge to go 'renegade' on 'em. The problem was resolved when the owner withdrew the car from judging; not because he was angry--because he thoroughly understood the problem at hand. He had an admittedly 'put together' Corvette that was a fine driver and it simply wasn't a good fit for a factory concours judging exercise. ALL parted friends and toasted one another at the bar after the meet....

[Robert Willis]

Re: Is this legal? An eBay Story.

In my part of the world, (Ontario, Canada) the VIN on the frame is what really counts. A few years ago I was going to change a cab on a truck and thought if I took the ownerships of both to the Ministry of Transportation they would issue a corrected new one. I was told that the VIN number on the frame was what really counted because every thing bolted to it including the body. The frame is the first thing on the assembly line so I guess that's when the car is born. The MTO also told me to use the VIN tag off of my old body on the new body so that it matched the frame VIN. Bob

http://members.kos.net/willisb/vette.html

[Paul L.]

Re: Is this legal? An eBay Story.

Bob,
I guess we agree to disagree. A title search in Ontario always goes with the VIN on the body. I have never seen a search on a frame number. Or known anyone who knows where they are!

[M W.]

Excellent Jack!!!! *NM*

[Harmon C.]

Re: Is this legal? An eBay Story.

If the VIN is not under the windshield or doesn't match your registration in Ohio I don't think you and your corvette will not be leaving the spot you were stoped together. The seller listed a Vin but as others have said it is not all on the frame. If the engine and frame are real you may see a 69 body on it next time.

[Robert Willis]

Re: Is this legal? An eBay Story.

Paul. I have don't some work with the Police and their Auto Theft Squad has a book that lists the places that the VIN is on the frame. When you change the body on the frame you must also change the VIN tag from the old body to the new body . Changing the body is classed as a repair ( like if a tree fell on the roof of you car) it still has the same running gear going down the road. To be legal the Vin tag must match the frame VIN.

http://members.kos.net/willisb/

[Paul L.]

Re: Is this legal? An eBay Story.

Robert,
Thanks for that info. I guess that complicates matters even further if the VIN on the body must match the VIN on the frame. That may differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but nevertheless I doubt that this car will see the road anytime soon. Hence my comment about a parts car.

[Kevin Whiteley]

Re: Is this legal? An eBay Story.

Hello everyone,

Thanks for all the responses. I have made a few inquiries about this auction. Sorry for the somewhat long response.

1) I checked some online Ohio statutes and found one which stated that the VIN for a vehicle/title could come from the VIN or any VIN derivative on a part, frame, etc. I'm no lawyer, but I would think that this could lead to some very curious titles.

2) The State of Ohio also has an online title inquiry system. I entered the VIN from the auction info and the system showed no such VIN. Not conclusive in and of itself, but it adds more mystery to the situation. If anyone is interested in the web address, e-mail me and I'll send it to you.

3) The auction info advertises the VIN in complete 1969 form, which includes the "67" for convertible. However, if as stated the VIN was taken from the frame derivitive, then how did the seller know the car was originally a convertible? I figure a) he either has or had the original pillar VIN plate, or b) he put the "67" in the VIN to match the convertible 75 body. I haven't been in the Corvette hobby long, but my 68 frame doesn't contain the body style VIN 'code'.

As far as the judging posts, I am not a judge,nor have I entered my car to be judged. But I would think that this car or any car would have to be judged according to the body, regardless of the VIN, title, etc. To use this auction as an example, there would be no way he could pass 1969 judging standards with the 1975 body because of the lack of cosmetic similarity. Again, I'm no expert, but if vehicles are judged according to what owners purport, then what's to prevent someone from taking a 68 frame and putting a 53 body on it and entering #301 in a show (an extreme example, but an illustrative one).

That's my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth (probably less than 2 cents, but there is no reserve, and I'll take the highest bidder ----- INSERT LAUGH HERE)

I e-mailed the seller about the engine, but have yet to receive a response. If anyone is near the car in Ohio, maybe they can find out more info. If the car really has a 427/435hp, I would really like to know if it's mine (my L71 is missing).

Caveat Emptor.

Kevin.

[Dave M.]

Re: Is this legal? An eBay Story.

In Ohio, (and I'd think other states), you can obtain a "Builder's Title" that provides legitimate ownership paperwork for anyone that would choose to piece together a car (or other motor vehicles) from parts. If you make application for a Builder's Title, prove the vehicle/bike roadworthy, provide copies of the major-component parts' receipts (frame, engine, body, etc, - with serial/VIN numbers as available) used to "build" the vehicle; you will be issued a Builder's Title and a registration number. This paperwork allows the owner to license the vehicle or sell it with State-produced, legitimate ownership paperwork.

[Craig S.]

Re: Is this legal? An eBay Story.

Dave - how do they deal with emissions requirements and equipment? Does it have to match 2003 as a new vehicle, or, some prior standards based on previous VIN of body or frame? Just curious, or, doesn't Ohio care? This is a big deal in Arizona....Craig