Question for National Team Leaders

[Ed]

During the judging of a 1975 L-48 it is determined that the Quadrajet is from a passenger car and the date is wrong.

The manual gives 40 points to the carb. for originality.

Keeping in mind the five elements of originality--- configuration, finish, installation, date, and completeness, what is the deduction for originality in this case?

[Jack H.]

Re: Question for National Team Leaders

Not being a National Team Leader, but speaking from the role of a lowly Chapter Judging Chairman, the answer is variable. First, there's the issue of what's 'correct' then there's the issue of what the outcome will be vs. should be at a given judging meet. The two are different because different levels of judges with different knowledge/experience spheres will attend/work different meets and that adds a human factor.

First, 1/5th of originality should evaporate based on "D" for dating or identity if we presume the passenger car carb has both the wrong GM list number for the intended Corvette application and it was selected randomly as a replacement part and doesn't come close to the NCRS 6-month rule. So, 8 points of originality can go bye bye here.

Next, there's an issue of configuration. If it's a Holley in a Q-Jet hole or vice versa, another 8 points could be lost. There are also sub-issues here since sub-systems of the carb (choke pull-off, secondary lock-out, Etc.) on the passenger car replacement might not agree with the judge's knowledge of proper factory original configuration for the part even if it's a Q-Jet in a Q-Jet hole).

You keep going. Is the replacement carb plated with the same/proper technology as the original? Early Q-Jets had one form of coating on the carb's 'shooter' pump arm then was typically used by later Q-Jets. So, questions arise as to how much of the replacement carb's FINISH agrees with what should be/would be there.

Basically, a service replacement part and a reproduction part that's distinguishably different from the known factory original part fall into the 90-10 rule of NCRS Standard Deductions per our Judging Reference Manual. If judges can distinguish differences, then they must take a minimum of 10% of the available originality points and MAY take as much as 90% of the originality points.

The FDICC guidline used by both NCRS and NCCB focus the judges to think and be prepared to rationalize their deduction in this area of discretion. But, EXACTLY how many points are deducted will vary with the specific knowledge of the individual judges on hand AND the owner's ability to reasonably question/challenge them.

[Gene M.]

Re: Question for National Team Leaders

Ed, I think one thing I would like to add to Jack's excellent explanation is that actual replacement carburetors are not cut and dry. The gas filter or battery are pretty straight forward when it comes to GM service replacement parts. Carburetors should retain the same stamped number to be an exact service replacement. The deviations then would be date codes and deviation from the original as Jack stated. Any other numbered carburetor would just be a carburetor subject to major deductions. The completeness on the evaluation of said carburetor would fall on the judge's knowledge of that particular year model. Hope this makes things clearer.

[Gene M.]

Re: Question for National Team Leaders

Ed, I think one thing I would like to add to Jack's excellent explanation is that actual replacement carburetors are not cut and dry. The gas filter or battery are pretty straight forward when it comes to GM service replacement parts. Carburetors should retain the same stamped number to be an exact service replacement. The deviations then would be date codes and deviation from the original as Jack stated. Any other numbered carburetor would just be a carburetor subject to major deductions. The completeness on the evaluation of said carburetor would fall on the judge's knowledge of that particular year model. Hope this makes things clearer.

[Terry M.]

Re: Question for National Team Leaders

Well this ought to start a good thread. I am going to recomment to John Woods that he take a look at it. It will make a good subject for his judging school.

I think Jack has provided some VERY SOUND explainations. I would only add:

If the only difference in the carburetors is the date and the stamped numbers we are dealing with:

a) 1/5 or 20% for the date. b) The stamped number is different. I would suggest that the stamped number is a small amount of the configuration. Yes it is probably indicitave of other configuration issues. Some of them are internal (jet sizes and the like) that can not be seen. So long as none of those differences are visible, just the numbers is a small part of the 20% for configuration.

Where the knowledge of the judge comes in is to be able to asses the configuration of the choke, extra vacuum ports or other deviations that the number might signal.

My assesment is IF only the date and number are different a 30% deduction would be the appropriate range. If I was presented with a 50% deduction I would expect the judge to be able to show me other visible configuration differences than just the date and number.

The example Jack mentions of a Holley in a Rochester application would be worth a full deduct. IMHO.

Let's see where this thread goes. I welcome other opinions.

Terry

[Terry M.]

Re: Question for National Team Leaders

Well this ought to start a good thread. I am going to recomment to John Woods that he take a look at it. It will make a good subject for his judging school.

I think Jack has provided some VERY SOUND explainations. I would only add:

If the only difference in the carburetors is the date and the stamped numbers we are dealing with:

a) 1/5 or 20% for the date. b) The stamped number is different. I would suggest that the stamped number is a small amount of the configuration. Yes it is probably indicitave of other configuration issues. Some of them are internal (jet sizes and the like) that can not be seen. So long as none of those differences are visible, just the numbers is a small part of the 20% for configuration.

Where the knowledge of the judge comes in is to be able to asses the configuration of the choke, extra vacuum ports or other deviations that the number might signal.

My assesment is IF only the date and number are different a 30% deduction would be the appropriate range. If I was presented with a 50% deduction I would expect the judge to be able to show me other visible configuration differences than just the date and number.

The example Jack mentions of a Holley in a Rochester application would be worth a full deduct. IMHO.

Let's see where this thread goes. I welcome other opinions.

Terry

[Gene M.]

Re: Question for National Team Leaders

Terry's request for opinions will not go unanswered. Terry suggested deduction of 30% is most fair for correct configuration carburetors without having correct numbers and date. I hope other team leaders follow your lead so "standard deductions" could be established for the deviation from production numbers and dates. The evaluation of the carburetor differences from production line build would still be a burden on the judge's knowledge. It is very important that judges clearly explain to owners these deviations and share this knowledge. It should be stressed when there is doubt about a part of the carburetor, note it, but make no deduction.

[Gene M.]

Re: Question for National Team Leaders

Terry's request for opinions will not go unanswered. Terry suggested deduction of 30% is most fair for correct configuration carburetors without having correct numbers and date. I hope other team leaders follow your lead so "standard deductions" could be established for the deviation from production numbers and dates. The evaluation of the carburetor differences from production line build would still be a burden on the judge's knowledge. It is very important that judges clearly explain to owners these deviations and share this knowledge. It should be stressed when there is doubt about a part of the carburetor, note it, but make no deduction.