Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

**Warren F.** · February 4, 2009, 03:45 PM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Jeff,

From your post, my sense is that you might qualify for a star for interior, probably not for engine bay or undercarriage, exterior is iffy. More than likely the Team Leader who makes the call will not recomend the car for Bowtie Judging.

I have a car with more original items than you've posted and I would not think it would qualify to be a Bowtie candidate. This is really my favorite type of judging, and wished that Top Flight judging would be this thorough.

**Terry M.** · February 4, 2009, 04:04 PM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

It is pretty common for cars to come for Bowtie judging without original tires and exhaust. And the only time we see an original battery is as a static display, and not very often at that.

Tires are judged on exterior

Exhaust, of course, is chassis.

The deal breaker for the exterior will be how much of the paint has been massaged. The standard for the Star/Bowtie is 70% of the paint must be determined to be original. I suggest rather than making that assessment yourself, you let the judges do it. Even at the Regional the judges will not make a determination of the percentage -- that is only done at the National during Bowtie judging. You will get a good feel for how they and the Team Leader are leaning from their comments at the Regional.

Edit add: I received an email questioning the 70% paint number, and suggesting that the number is 75%. That could be, and I will have to check the Judging Reference Manual when I get home. I'll post an update later this evening. I am sorry for the confusion.

It sounds to me like you have made a very thorough list, and have made a very honest assessment of your car. Fluids and lubricants don't count, and neither does the window sticker. NCRS does not judge window stickers in any kind of judging.

Go for it. I'll see you in Charlotte, and relax and have fun. The nice thing about Bowtie judging is that the car is what it is -- and all one has to do is let the car speak for itself.

**Jeff G.** · February 4, 2009, 05:41 PM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Good points guys, Thanks. Terry, you're on top of this discussion board. Correction to the hose clamps, bypass hose and AIR hose clamps are the original ones. I replaced the radiator hose clamps (screw type) with the correct tower clamps. Most everything else under hood appears original: altenator, ac compressor, water pump, chrome parts, fan/shroud/clutch, overflow tank, cap, vaccum lines, actuators, etc., etc.
As for the paint, I'm pretty sure it's well beyond 70%. Actually behind the wheel wells it's very worn down (no flares like a 70) and many little pebble nicks (picture attached). When observing the whole car in the sun you can see a slight varigated color everywhere due to the paint weakness. The touch-up paint seems to be limted to the little duabs someone did with bottle and brush to cover up some pebble nicks. I also have a notorized document from the original owner from 1988 verifying the miles, no hit body, and never painted. I also attached a close up of the hood so you can see the shadow of LT1 type pin stripe from many years ago. You have to look very closely below the hood bulde to see it here. Of course the actual stripe is not there today. Are these the type of things that would be a show stopper with paint?
Dsc00253.jpg

Dsc00254.jpg

**Patrick H.** · February 4, 2009, 06:19 PM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Originally posted by Jeff Groover (46451)

Are these the type of things that would be a show stopper with paint?

No.

Behind your wheels the paint is worn, not replaced or repaired. In addition, I doubt that 30% of your paint is worn off.

Even my 72 has similar "lack of paint" behind the wheels.

Patrick

**Mark F.** · February 4, 2009, 06:51 PM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Originally posted by Terry McManmon (3966)

It is pretty common for cars to come for Bowtie judging without original tires and exhaust. And the only time we see an original battery is as a static display, and not very often at that.

Tires are judged on exterior

Exhaust, of course, is chassis.

The deal breaker for the exterior will be how much of the paint has been massaged. The standard for the Star/Bowtie is 70% of the paint must be determined to be original. I suggest rather than making that assessment yourself, you let the judges do it. Even at the Regional the judges will not make a determination of the percentage -- that is only done at the National during Bowtie judging. You will get a good feel for how they and the Team Leader are leaning from their comments at the Regional.

Edit add: I received an email questioning the 70% paint number, and suggesting that the number is 75%. That could be, and I will have to check the Judging Reference Manual when I get home. I'll post an update later this evening. I am sorry for the confusion.

It sounds to me like you have made a very thorough list, and have made a very honest assessment of your car. Fluids and lubricants don't count, and neither does the window sticker. NCRS does not judge window stickers in any kind of judging.

Go for it. I'll see you in Charlotte, and relax and have fun. The nice thing about Bowtie judging is that the car is what it is -- and all one has to do is let the car speak for itself.

Jeff/Terry
It wasn't clear to me whether or not Jeff intends to have his car flight judged in Charlotte (Regional? Chapter?), he didn't say. But something to consider, if Charlotte is a regional or chapter meet, then I believe the Bowtie event is an evaluation for a National Bowtie judging, and he is entitled to have his car flight judged as well, if the rules have not changed since 2005. In 2005 I had my 300 horse roadster both flight judged and Bowtie evaluated at the Regional in Berkeley. There was a huge stink about whether or not I could have both done, but at the end of the day, the events judging chairman read the rules and this was accepted. Jeff will get the most out of this experience.

Cheers!

**Dick W.** · February 4, 2009, 07:15 PM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

I believe if you will read the Judging Reference Manual you will find out that the car MUST be flight judged at the time it receives the Bowtie

**Patrick H.** · February 4, 2009, 09:54 PM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Regarding your car, one of your last statements says the most:
"I did a number of the replacement things above to make this 78K mile car road worthy for limited local use and the enjoyment of tinkering with cars."

It's your car, and yours to do with as you please. However, the "maintenance" items you did probably took you out of contention for a Star or two. Unfortunately I see this frequently, and mourn the very original cars that have a bunch of parts replaced "just because they're old parts." Look around eBay if you want to see some examples. I used to regularly tell the previous owner of my 72 NOT to touch it because he just likes to "tinker" and would mess things up. He finally sold it to me because he couldn't stand not fussing with it. True Bowtie cars aren't the pretty cars that restored cars can be, but for those of us with an interest in Originality, they're better. If someone is truly interested in Star/Bowtie judging the best thing to do is leave the car alone and present it as-is. The car does not have to even run to qualify for Bowtie judging.

Also realize that by posting the list you now let us judges know what might get "massaged" between now and judging time.

Additional comments per your request. Some are very specific or pointed.

#4 - why, was the original pan not able to be used?
#5 - how can you tell? And can the judges tell?
#6 - again, why? For pretty's sake?
#7 - $20 at Paragon gets you a new one.
#11 - installed by previous owner?
#14 - so buy one and add it, or better yet find a used one. Not tough to improve this one.
#16 through 20 - I assume these were all part of your work when you bought the car? If so, see 2nd paragraph above.

I suspect that the Mechanical section of Star judging may be where you lose out because of the parts that have been replaced. It's tough for us to rate your Exterior or Interior without pictures.

Have it judged. Drive it to the meet and enjoy; you'll get bonus points for driving it and probably go home with a Top Flight. Then you can decide what to do next, if anything.

Also, feel free to look at pics of mine if you want an idea of what a 5 Star Bowtie car looks like with 61000 miles:

Webshots - Desktop Wallpaper / Screen Savers

http://rides.webshots.com/album/563832912SazBoi?vhost=rides

Webshots, the best in Desktop Wallpaper, Desktop Backgrounds, and Screen Savers since 1995.

Patrick

**Jeff G.** · February 5, 2009, 09:03 AM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Patrick,
Good discussion, your points are well taken. I think you have the wrong impression of the list though. Most of these things were incorrect when I got the car.
I kept the ORIGINAL parts, which were only 3 of the mentioned. As you referenced:

4 Original oil pan had a liberal leak at the plug due to a big dent in the bottom of the pan all the way back to the plug area.
5 - I assume (not absolute) the bumper was replaced with a used one due to the surface rust pattern on mounting holes underneath do not match the current bolt pattern, it's also in better condition Vs the rear bumpers. All brackets are and bolts are original though.
6 - The insulation was falling out in pieces all over the place and fiberglass threads dragging on the ground and near drive shaft. Risky condition I thought might develop into a safety issue.
11 - Aftermarket master cylinder was on car when I got it and malfunctioning. I put the correct one on but it's a GM restoration part.
16-20 Again, these parts were incorrect when I got the car. Old worn-out aftermarket parts were found so I had no problem putting on the correct radiator hoses, clamps, and shocks.
Interior is untouched.

I didn't touch things for prettiness, the tinkering was mainly to correct wrong parts, safety, and verify numbers and dates according to the JG. I suppose the insulation could be an exception, but I thought it was risky.

Thanks...

**Mark F.** · February 5, 2009, 09:15 AM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Originally posted by Jeff Groover (46451)

Patrick,
Good discussion, your points are well taken. I think you have the wrong impression of the list though. Most of these things were incorrect when I got the car.
I kept the ORIGINAL parts, which were only 3 of the mentioned. As you referenced:

4 Original oil pan had a liberal leak at the plug due to a big dent in the bottom of the pan all the way back to the plug area.
5 - I assume (not absolute) the bumper was replaced with a used one due to the surface rust pattern on mounting holes underneath do not match the current bolt pattern, it's also in better condition Vs the rear bumpers. All brackets are and bolts are original though.
6 - The insulation was falling out in pieces all over the place and fiberglass threads dragging on the ground and near drive shaft. Risky condition I thought might develop into a safety issue.
11 - Aftermarket master cylinder was on car when I got it and malfunctioning. I put the correct one on but it's a GM restoration part.
16-20 Again, these parts were incorrect when I got the car. Old worn-out aftermarket parts were found so I had no problem putting on the correct radiator hoses, clamps, and shocks.
Interior is untouched.

I didn't touch things for prettiness, the tinkering was mainly to correct wrong parts, safety, and verify numbers and dates according to the JG. I suppose the insulation could be an exception, but I thought it was risky.

Thanks...

Hi Jeff,

I think you are spot on with your decision. As you probably know, you must first have your car chapter judged before you can attend a regional event, at least that has always been the rule.

Regarding the Bowtie, the mere fact that you took a wrench to the car will pretty much turn the judges off. Bowtie is all about factory original and never monkeyied with....within defined limitations.

It's great that you have the enthusiasm to make the car correct, so keep up the good work!

Cheers!

**Patrick H.** · February 5, 2009, 09:31 AM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Originally posted by Mark Francois (26312)

As you probably know, you must first have your car chapter judged before you can attend a regional event, at least that has always been the rule.

Not true.
That has not been the rule for several years, if ever.

**Patrick H.** · February 5, 2009, 09:35 AM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Originally posted by Jeff Groover (46451)

Patrick,
Good discussion, your points are well taken. I think you have the wrong impression of the list though. Most of these things were incorrect when I got the car.

...and that's fine. Sometimes we buy a really nice car that has had maintenance over the years and, as a result, might not quite make it in terms of Bowtie. Even mine had brakes, exhaust, tires, two hoses and a water pump replaced, so just because an item is on your list doesn't mean it will disqualify you.

I'm working on one right now that likely is a "close but no cigar" type of car. It is still a very original one, though, and I'm trying to keep it that way. The owner just wants a nice running car.

You still would not lose anything taking it to a Regional and having it judged + having it Bowtie evaluated. Adding the Bowtie eval is free, and seeing it in person and getting a "gestaldt" of the car would mean so much more.

Patrick

**Mike E.** · February 5, 2009, 10:18 AM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Patrick is right--you don't have to undergo chapter judging before regional judging for the 4 star/bowtie area.

My 71 LT-1 convertible is a 3-star car--it lost on paint because of some rattle-can touch-up work that I didn't/couldn't take off to get to the original (some rattle-can primer in between). I wasn't sure that I should bring it, did, and it qualified for national. At national the judges loved it, and Terry M used it 2 days for the judging school because it has original exhaust, shocks, etc. Tires are replaced, as are calipers. Has a hole drilled for an antenna, even though it was a non-radio car.

It's a very late 71, and I learned much about the car (72 carpet, for example) and the judges learned much. I'd encourage you to take it and have it evaluated.

One additional thought--the shading where the LT-1 stripe was can be interpreted two different ways--and one is that it is still the original paint there, and no points should be deducted. That's not an automatic deduct in my book.

**Mark F.** · February 5, 2009, 10:24 AM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Originally posted by Patrick Hulst (16386)

Not true.
That has not been the rule for several years, if ever.

Patrick

Thanks for the correction.

I could swear that in my first regional judging event in 1995, I had to first take my car to a chapter event.

Old age has set in!

Cheers!

**Jeff G.** · February 5, 2009, 12:22 PM

Re: Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Thanks everyone, so far it's been a real learning curve for me. Even better is the opportutnity to talk with other purist Corvette lovers like me. Patrick, I looked at your 72 online last night and found myself grinning at something. You have the same size seat tear, in the same place as I do. On another note, I still have the original floor mats in my car. I noticed on the passenger side that there are some very small holes in the floorboard carpet corners closer to the seat. It appears like the floor mat corners had been shifting around over the years and caused these small holes. Have you experienced or seen this?
Jeff

Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

Stars, Maybe Bowtie?

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