Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History - NCRS Discussion Boards

Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

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  • Joe C.
    Expired
    • August 31, 1999
    • 4598

    Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

    Originally posted by Gene Manno (8571)
    Joe,
    Is it possible the helical gears are transferring a greater tangential loads to the distributor shaft due to a camshaft load being higher because of steeper ramps and stiffer springs? A longer lower bearing will help spread the side load out. I suggest this because the only side load on the lower bearing is the gear set. The oil pump is pure rotational. Alignment of distributor shaft is determined by the intake manifold hole position.

    Knowing you, you will figure out the solution.
    Gene,

    I rebuilt this distributor last, in midsummer 2012, and have since put about 5000 miles on it. When I put it on the dyno this October, 2013, the torque/power curves showed very erratic, characteristic of an ignition problem. I didn't bother checking the timing before the dyno session. Of course, if I had, then a more accurate test could have been done. As it turned out, after checking timing at the shop, the WOT advance showed only 28 degrees (initial had moved from 21 to 13)! The dist had been set up with 36 WOT degrees when done in summer 2012, as it had moved 8 degrees retarded in 5K miles. The thing still made close to 400 RWHP @ 6650 RPM despite the loose distributor gear, retarded timing, and still not optimized a/f ratio. It also explains the mild tip-in stumble which has slowly been creeping in over the last few months or so.

    The camshaft is a hardened ductile iron solid roller, which is used for non racing applications and so has a hardened iron distributor drive gear. It does NOT require a bronze or composite distributor driven gear, as billet steel camshafts do. The cam is holding up very well; I've checked lash three times now, in about 8K miles and it has not moved one iota. The cam is located fore-and-aft with a roller thrust plate to prevent rearward movement. Forward motion is limited by a steel roller thrust button up against the stamped steel timing cover which I reinforced by brazing a 1/8" steel plate to the inside. Fore and aft motion is limited @ .006", and this checks out; recommendation IIRC is max 0.010". Oil pump is standard volume with Melling pink spring (70#). Variation from stock is use of tool steel pump drive with integral coupling in place of the nylon coupling. I can't see if/how that setup can make a difference, but if I'm missing something then please let me know.

    Gear mesh was checked and the pattern shows proper vertical distributor placement. I installed a new melonized steel GM distributor driven gear which is for use with ductile iron GM camshafts as well as my aftermarket ductile iron cam. I reamed the lower bushing for .004" clearance to the new shaft which I polished progressively (IN THE DIRECTION OF SHAFT ROTATION, so that the "grain" lays over in rotational direction) with 600/1000/1500/2000 grit paper. The shaft, as delivered from LICS was quite rough, and polishing removed about 0.002". The final pass with the reamer removed 0.002" more than I would have liked, so now, time will tell how well the wide .004" clearance will hold up. I drilled 2 - 1/32" diameter holes from the oil gallery access ring through the distributor housing and the lower bushing, so it will now be pressure oiled just like crank bearings. There is plenty of drain-back to prevent the housing filling with oil and flooding the Hall Effect trigger. This pressure feed also provides additional oil, in addition to normal splash, for gear lubrication.
  • Gerard F.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • June 30, 2004
    • 3805

    #2
    Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

    Joe,

    I'm no expert on this subject as you know. But here's an idea.

    Could the change in timing be a temporary or permanent torsional deflection in the distributor shaft itself?
    At the RPM's you run your car, I would see a lot of heat build up in the lower shaft bearing and a lot of torsional stress in the distributor shaft. In a thin shaft wouldn't this create a torsional deflection?

    Just a thought from a maybe all wet CE
    Jerry Fuccillo
    1967 327/300 Convertible since 1968

    Comment

    • Joe C.
      Expired
      • August 31, 1999
      • 4598

      #3
      Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

      Originally posted by Gerard Fuccillo (42179)
      Joe,

      I'm no expert on this subject as you know. But here's an idea.

      Could the change in timing be a temporary or permanent torsional deflection in the distributor shaft itself?
      At the RPM's you run your car, I would see a lot of heat build up in the lower shaft bearing and a lot of torsional stress in the distributor shaft. In a thin shaft wouldn't this create a torsional deflection?

      Just a thought from a maybe all wet CE
      Thanks Jerry, and I do appreciate your input as always. I know the cause of the unintended timing change, and that was due to the lower bushing wear, which was elongated directly towards the rear of the engine, and had more than .040" slop in the rearward direction. That slop causes the driven gear to locate itself toward the bellhousing, a 0.040" longitudinal travel, which causes the distributor shaft to lose some angular displacement. Additionally, the driven gear was worn with about a 0.020" step on each helical tooth, which results in further loss of angular rotation compared to the shaft when correctly located.

      What my aim is, is to determine WHY this has been happening.....................yes, even before I replaced the flat tappet 30-30 cam with the solid roller.

      I never checked the new shaft with a loupe before, and found the surface to be way too rough for my liking. That might be a part of it, and the high polish may go a long way to fixing it. Also, I never reamed the new bushing before, and never used an extra long one.

      This is why GM never sold bushings and states that the dist must be serviced as an assembly. Precise machining might be needed. Hard to believe because I never heard others report this situation. I'm sure that there are others who service their own distributors.

      Comment

      • Ken A.
        Very Frequent User
        • July 31, 1986
        • 929

        #4
        Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

        GM line bored the bushings to keep the bushings parallel.Also, some repo shafts are too soft.

        Comment

        • Terry M.
          Beyond Control Poster
          • September 30, 1980
          • 15595

          #5
          Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

          Joe,
          Is there a chance you are running a non-stock oil pump and heavy weight oil? The increased load of such a pump and oil could accelerate the wear on that lower bushing.
          Terry

          Comment

          • Joe L.
            Beyond Control Poster
            • February 1, 1988
            • 43208

            #6
            Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

            Originally posted by Joe Ciaravino (32899)
            Thanks Jerry, and I do appreciate your input as always. I know the cause of the unintended timing change, and that was due to the lower bushing wear, which was elongated directly towards the rear of the engine, and had more than .040" slop in the rearward direction. That slop causes the driven gear to locate itself toward the bellhousing, a 0.040" longitudinal travel, which causes the distributor shaft to lose some angular displacement. Additionally, the driven gear was worn with about a 0.020" step on each helical tooth, which results in further loss of angular rotation compared to the shaft when correctly located.

            What my aim is, is to determine WHY this has been happening.....................yes, even before I replaced the flat tappet 30-30 cam with the solid roller.

            I never checked the new shaft with a loupe before, and found the surface to be way too rough for my liking. That might be a part of it, and the high polish may go a long way to fixing it. Also, I never reamed the new bushing before, and never used an extra long one.

            This is why GM never sold bushings and states that the dist must be serviced as an assembly. Precise machining might be needed. Hard to believe because I never heard others report this situation. I'm sure that there are others who service their own distributors.

            Joe-----


            The GM melonized distributor drive gear is used with GM STEEL roller camshafts. I don't think GM uses ductile iron for any roller camshafts. The only aftermarket ductile iron roller cams I know of are Speed-Pro. These do not require any sort of special distributor gear. A stock-type, pre-roller gear should work fine. However, I don't think it will hurt anything to use the melonized gear with a ductile iron cam.

            While GM did not supply the distributor bushings in SERVICE, they did offer the distributor housing assembly with installed bushings. So, one could SERVICE a distributor suffering from worn bushings without having to replace the complete distributor.

            As Ken mentions, GM line-bored the bushings. The only outfit I know of that ever serviced distributor housings and line-bored the bushings was Jim Dwyer at Hi-TecH Innovations. Jim passed away many years ago and Hi-Tech Innovations closed up shop not too long afterwards.
            In Appreciation of John Hinckley

            Comment

            • Timothy B.
              Extremely Frequent Poster
              • April 30, 1983
              • 5183

              #7
              Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

              Joe,

              Have you thought about the oil pump shaft and distributor shaft connection. If there is no clearance at that juncture rotational force could push the shaft rearward. There is something causing rearward force as evidenced by the .020 step you report in the driven gear.

              Comment

              • Joe C.
                Expired
                • August 31, 1999
                • 4598

                #8
                Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

                Originally posted by Terry McManmon (3966)
                Joe,
                Is there a chance you are running a non-stock oil pump and heavy weight oil? The increased load of such a pump and oil could accelerate the wear on that lower bushing.
                Terry,
                The oil pump is a Melling Select (10553), standard volume pump. It has the 70# (pink) spring installed. Pump is same as M55a (std vol-hi press), but uses a heavier casting with more reinforcement in the neck area.

                I blueprinted this pump by streamlining all the passages inside, and by ensuring flatness @ .0015" between the gears and the end plate.

                I use 10W-40 Castrol GT motor oil, which is cooled by stacked plate cooler. The oil temp varies between about 190 and 230 degrees based on ambient temp and vehicle speed.
                Last edited by Joe C.; November 30, 2013, 11:46 AM.

                Comment

                • Joe C.
                  Expired
                  • August 31, 1999
                  • 4598

                  #9
                  Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

                  Originally posted by Joe Lucia (12484)
                  Joe-----


                  The GM melonized distributor drive gear is used with GM STEEL roller camshafts. I don't think GM uses ductile iron for any roller camshafts. The only aftermarket ductile iron roller cams I know of are Speed-Pro. These do not require any sort of special distributor gear. A stock-type, pre-roller gear should work fine. However, I don't think it will hurt anything to use the melonized gear with a ductile iron cam.

                  While GM did not supply the distributor bushings in SERVICE, they did offer the distributor housing assembly with installed bushings. So, one could SERVICE a distributor suffering from worn bushings without having to replace the complete distributor.

                  As Ken mentions, GM line-bored the bushings. The only outfit I know of that ever serviced distributor housings and line-bored the bushings was Jim Dwyer at Hi-TecH Innovations. Jim passed away many years ago and Hi-Tech Innovations closed up shop not too long afterwards.
                  Joe,
                  I think that much of the aftermarket, including Comp, use ductile iron rather than billet steel for many of their hydraulic rollers as well as milder, streetable solid rollers. They are not susceptible to breaking because of their lower lift/lower spring force, less aggressive flanks and thus less torsional loading. I would think that GM cams, being milder than aftermarket, would not need billet steel for torsional strength as this would be overkill, IMHO. Billet steel camshafts REQUIRE either bronze, or composite distributor driven gears. The gears, softer than the billet steel, are designed to be sacrificial.

                  Comp Cams specified the GM steel gear. The cam is advertised as being made from SATI (selectively austempered ductile iron). I had a standard GM iron distributor gear on it before, and it was torn up by the camshaft drive gear in short order. The cam is installed in the engine and the distributor drive looks and "feels" undamaged. The iron gear has gotten a pronounced step on all teeth.

                  Doesn't Dave Fiedler line bore them? He makes his own bushings he tells me, and after they are compressed in the bore, he either reams them or line bores them.
                  Last edited by Joe C.; November 30, 2013, 11:58 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Joe C.
                    Expired
                    • August 31, 1999
                    • 4598

                    #10
                    Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

                    Originally posted by Ken Anderson (10232)
                    GM line bored the bushings to keep the bushings parallel.Also, some repo shafts are too soft.
                    Ken,

                    I have never replaced the upper bushing, and it has some play in it. I estimate the clearance between the upper bush and the shaft at less than 0.010". In any case, this does not make perfect alignment as important. After reaming the lower bushing, the shaft drops in and spins freely, so alignment doesn't appear to be a concern. I only wish I had taken a smaller final cut on that lower bushing. I would have preferred 0.0015" - 0.002" clearance down there, as the oil pressure would prevent contact. With .004" I hope that I don't run into "boundary lubrication".

                    Comment

                    • Joe C.
                      Expired
                      • August 31, 1999
                      • 4598

                      #11
                      Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

                      Originally posted by Timothy Barbieri (6542)
                      Joe,

                      Have you thought about the oil pump shaft and distributor shaft connection. If there is no clearance at that juncture rotational force could push the shaft rearward. There is something causing rearward force as evidenced by the .020 step you report in the driven gear.
                      Timothy,

                      If I drop the distributor directly onto the intake, with no gaskets or shims, I cannot get a .005" feeler gauge in between. I checked the gear mesh with white compound and a 0.030" nylon shim installed between the housing and the intake manifold, with no gasket and found the mesh to be dead center of the helical gears. I was using a double gasket before (measured about 0.100"). That was too thick, but I don't believe that that contributed to the condition.

                      Distributor shaft end play is set @ .006".
                      Last edited by Joe C.; November 30, 2013, 12:02 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Joe L.
                        Beyond Control Poster
                        • February 1, 1988
                        • 43208

                        #12
                        Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

                        Originally posted by Joe Ciaravino (32899)
                        Joe,
                        I think that much of the aftermarket, including Comp, use ductile iron rather than billet steel for many of their hydraulic rollers as well as milder, streetable solid rollers. They are not susceptible to breaking because of their lower lift/lower spring force, less aggressive flanks and thus less torsional loading. I would think that GM cams, being milder than aftermarket, would not need billet steel for torsional strength as this would be overkill, IMHO. Billet steel camshafts REQUIRE either bronze, or composite distributor driven gears. The gears, softer than the billet steel, are designed to be sacrificial.

                        Comp Cams specified the GM steel gear. The cam is advertised as being made from SATI (selectively austempered ductile iron). I had a standard GM iron distributor gear on it before, and it was torn up by the camshaft drive gear in short order. The cam is installed in the engine and the distributor drive looks and "feels" undamaged. The iron gear has gotten a pronounced step on all teeth.

                        Doesn't Dave Fiedler line bore them? He makes his own bushings he tells me, and after they are compressed in the bore, he either reams them or line bores them.
                        Joe-----


                        As far as I know, the GM hydraulic roller camshafts are steel. They are advertised and specified as being steel. Of course, sometimes certain types of cast iron are referred to as "steel". I wouldn't think that GM would do this although once-upon-a-time they called their ductile/malleable iron "Armasteel". All of the GM hydraulic roller camshafts require the melonized distributor gear.

                        The only manufacturer of austempered ductile iron roller camshafts that I know of is Speed Pro/Federal-Mogul. They were definitely the first ones to use this material for hydraulic roller cams but I suppose others like Comp Cams may have switched by now. However, austempered ductile iron roller camshafts do not require a special distributor gear, melonized or otherwise. So, if the GM roller cams were austempered ductile iron, I do not understand why they would require a melonized gear.

                        I was not aware that Dave Fiedler line bored the bushings. If anyone confirms that with him, I'd like to know about it.
                        In Appreciation of John Hinckley

                        Comment

                        • Gene M.
                          Extremely Frequent Poster
                          • April 1, 1985
                          • 4232

                          #13
                          Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

                          Joe,
                          My thought is having a .004 bearing clearance with oil supplied under pressure will reduce any possible wear greatly. In my mind I seem to recall a hardness range necessary for both shaft and bearing. Ranges outside acceptable ranges contribute to material wear or even transfer material to the shaft. Going on memory a shaft of around Rc58 and bearing around Rc 45 was good. Sintered to size was preferred to machined. Sintered to size requires stiff control of the housing press fit. Those hardnesses was without lubrication under pressure. Add pressure and hardness requirements lessen.

                          You would be able to find the ideal hardnesses and materials in Machinery Handbook. Your gear wear sounds like a lot. Again knowing you, you will search out wear characteristics and solve this.

                          Comment

                          • Joe C.
                            Expired
                            • August 31, 1999
                            • 4598

                            #14
                            Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

                            Joe,

                            I'm not sure whether DF line bores or reams his home made bushings. If the upper bushing, which has virtually no lateral loading on it (as far as I can see), is fitted oversized, then perfect alignment top-to-bottom shouldn't be important so long as the bottom bushing is not installed with excessive clearance.

                            he lower bush was designed by GM to be lubed by splash. I had previously drilled a single 1/32" hole for pressure oiling; however, the damage occurred despite this. I have now added a second 1/32" diameter hole (both at about 60 degrees CW and CCW from the thrust axis). I am trying to emulate the oiling mechanism that occurs in crank/throw "bearings" (bushings). Hopefully, hydrodynamic lubrication is occurring, but periods of boundary lubrication should be acceptable considering the lower forces involved here as well as the fact that the dizzy shaft turns at 1/2 the speed of the crank.

                            Comment

                            • Joe C.
                              Expired
                              • August 31, 1999
                              • 4598

                              #15
                              Re: Distributor Lower Bushing Excessive Wear History

                              Originally posted by Gene Manno (8571)
                              Joe,
                              My thought is having a .004 bearing clearance with oil supplied under pressure will reduce any possible wear greatly. In my mind I seem to recall a hardness range necessary for both shaft and bearing. Ranges outside acceptable ranges contribute to material wear or even transfer material to the shaft. Going on memory a shaft of around Rc58 and bearing around Rc 45 was good. Sintered to size was preferred to machined. Sintered to size requires stiff control of the housing press fit. Those hardnesses was without lubrication under pressure. Add pressure and hardness requirements lessen.

                              You would be able to find the ideal hardnesses and materials in Machinery Handbook. Your gear wear sounds like a lot. Again knowing you, you will search out wear characteristics and solve this.
                              Gene,

                              These are shafts sold by all of the aftermarket parts houses, and so, although almost nothing is heard about these wear problems, doesn't necessarily mean that the don't occur. They are shipped with considerable surface roughness. If something is published re: shaft material/surface finish as well as bushing material then I have not been able to find it. It might be one of the best trade secrets being kept by the likes of Dave Fiedler and others. This is absolutely not rocket science, and I firmly believe that it is something fundamental that I am missing. I never would have believed that something as simple and seemingly straightforward as a distributor bushing/shaft R & R would be so involved.

                              DF: If you're listening, then I expect a kickback.

                              By the way, there are a couple things that some here may not be aware of:
                              1. The GM melonized steel gear has different dimple orientation than the original iron gear used on vintage distributors.
                              2. The "football" for centrifugal advance, atop the reproduction "SHP" shafts were installed incorrectly by aftermarket suppliers. After notifying all of them last summer, as to this situation, I can report that the condition has been rectified by LICS, but not by Paragon.

                              Comment

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