Black phosphate

[Jeffrey S.]

Some time ago there was a thread on the subject of black phosphate and I said that I had purchased the Shooters Solution material and I would report back when I used it. Yesterday I used it to finish a pair of hood latches on Don Lowe's '72. Attached are 2 pictures of the finished product. I think the color is right on (dark gray, not pitch black) and the "sparkles", although you can't see them in the photo, are there. I would like your opinions on how you think the color compares. The color in the photo is very close to the real thing.
It took me quite a while from the time I got the product to when I tried it because the instructions are horribly written to the point that I couldn't understand them. After calling the tech support line and spending a half hour on the phone with the owner, I felt I knew what to do. This material is more difficult to use than the Caswell black oxide which gives a very black smooth finish which is good for most blackened fasteners. After removing any of the old finish (plating, etc.) and sand blasting -not bead blasting- you need to get the piece extremely clean using their degreaser which needs to be heated almost to boiling. Then you need to pre heat the part in hot water, just off boil, so it is the same temperature as the blackening solution which is 180 degrees. Then the part goes in for anywhere from 10 minutes to 45 minutes depending on the part. After this you have to spray their oil which is a synthetic oil on the part and rinse it off then spray again. I left the parts hanging to dry overnight and then wiped the oil off. I think the extra effort is worth it because the results are excellent.
Jeff

[Patrick H.]

Re: Black phosphate

Jeff,

They look great!

I'll admit it - I don't do as much prep as you describe. I've bead blasted bolts, clean them with Simple Green (20%) and water, rinse and then cook them in the chemical solution using a Teflon-lined pan on the stove. They still come out great, and the only "issue" I ever have is the amount of whitish "iron" that forms. At least, he calls it "iron" byproduct in his descriptions. I've tried a bit of variation trying to get rid of the white stuff but no luck so far. Thankfully it generally is easily removed when rinsing afterward and then applying his oil.

I'll soon have some fuel line bolts to treat.

Patrick

[Jeffrey S.]

Re: Black phosphate

Patrick:
I did this procedure because that is what the directions called for. I would be very happy to just clean and dip. By the way- he told me I should not heat the solution on the stove because it would heat unevenly and not give good results. Obviously from your comments this is not true. I made an elaborate immersion heater from a hot water tank element. I guess I'm overdoing it.
Jeff

[Patrick H.]

Re: Black phosphate

Patrick:
I did this procedure because that is what the directions called for. I would be very happy to just clean and dip. By the way- he told me I should not heat the solution on the stove because it would heat unevenly and not give good results. Obviously from your comments this is not true. I made an elaborate immersion heater from a hot water tank element. I guess I'm overdoing it.
Jeff

It could be that the excess "iron" product is from the heating issue. I've tried stirring vs not stirring the solution while doing this and it didn't seem to make a difference. Did you also get a lot "iron snow" when doing this?

I've considered using a crock pot, but I've not yet done a batch large enough to go that way. My pan is just a 1 quart pan, and I heat it moderately slow.

Patrick

[Gerard F.]

Re: Black phosphate

Jeff,

Try the Crock Pot if you just want to clean and dip:


This is with Grant Wong's stuff, but it sounds the same as what you are using. Here's the Restorer Article:

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/attachme...1&d=1240465614

[Jeffrey S.]

Re: Black phosphate

Patrick:
After the second piece there was a considerable amount of "snow" as you call it in the solution. Just take an old t-shirt and filter the solution through and all of that will be gone and you will have a clear solution. Use distilled water to maintain the volume. As far as the milky residue, rinse the part well after treatment with water and spray on the oil. Then wipe off the first coat of oil and spray again. I had no residue after the first oil treatment. The heating element set up really heats the solution quickly. Within 5 minutes the solution is at 180 degrees. I use the same type set up for heating the acid copper I use as well and it greatly speeds up plating time.
Gerald:
Thanks for the reminder of the article. How long does it take to heat the solution with the crock pot?
Jeff

[Patrick H.]

Re: Black phosphate

Patrick:
After the second piece there was a considerable amount of "snow" as you call it in the solution. Just take an old t-shirt and filter the solution through and all of that will be gone and you will have a clear solution. Use distilled water to maintain the volume. As far as the milky residue, rinse the part well after treatment with water and spray on the oil. Then wipe off the first coat of oil and spray again. I had no residue after the first oil treatment. The heating element set up really heats the solution quickly. Within 5 minutes the solution is at 180 degrees. I use the same type set up for heating the acid copper I use as well and it greatly speeds up plating time.
Gerald:
Thanks for the reminder of the article. How long does it take to heat the solution with the crock pot?
Jeff

Jeff,

I use a coffee filter and a funnel to remove the snow. It works well too. Also used distilled water, etc as a routine. All the rest of your tips are things I've been doing. The kicker is that my "former" brand of black phosphate didn't really "snow" so much, so I suspect there may be a way to decrease it with the Shooters Solution product.

Crock pot takes along time to heat based on my testing, but it "may" decrease the potential for "snow."

Patrick

[Gerard F.]

Re: Black phosphate

Jeff,

I cheat with the crockpot, I use one of the ceramic heaters from my Caswell kit to heat it up to temperature, then let the crockpot maintain the temperature. This saves many hours of getting the crockpot up to temperature.

I never had any problem with the white stuff, and am using the same solution for a couple of years in a dedicated crockpot. I just add the chemicals to the solution once in a while and heat the solution up whenever I want to do a few bolts. If I want to do gray phosphate, I change the solution or use a different crockpot. Once you add the black to the gray, it is going to stay black.

Crockpot Jerry

[Jeffrey S.]

Re: Black phosphate

Patrick, Gerald:
You should try the hot water heater element set up. Today I needed to heat the black oxide (Caswell) solution to 140 degrees. The heating element got it up top temperature in less than 5 minutes. By coupling the element to a thermostat made for a hot water heater you can even regulate the temperature to whatever you set the thermostat to. I can't believe it has taken me all these years of plating to discover this quick, easy and inexpensive set-up! I will draw up a diagram of the set-up and post it so you can put one together.
Jeff

[Patrick H.]

Re: Black phosphate

I will draw up a diagram of the set-up and post it so you can put one together.
Jeff

Great!

How about pictures too?

Thanks,
Patrick

[Jeffrey S.]

Re: Black phosphate

Attached are some pictures of the heater set-up that I use. I do all of my plating in 1 and 2 gallon plastic pails so I have 2 elements- a short one for the 1 gallon and a longer one for the 2 gallon. Both are 1500 watts so a common hardware store cord is good since most are rated at 2000 watts. These are available at any plumbing supply store for about $8. The thermostat is also available at the same stores for about $10. Make the bracket out of ductwork sheet metal. You can cut the hole for the element with any bi-metal hole saw. Just be sure that you get the heating portion of the set-up under the liquid solution. A small section out of the solution is not really a problem but you don't want half in, half out for example. The thermostat registers through tghe back of the unit so I rubber band it to the pail. I experimented with the settings to find out where the 110 degree, 140 degree and so on needs to be set. I have it so it will cut off at precisely the temperature I need for a particular plating.
Jeff

[Don L.]

Re: Black phosphate

Just to close the loop and to thank Jeff publicly, I re-installed my hood latches after Jeff plated them for me. They are now on and they look/work like a million bucks! Thank you Jeff!!!

I'll try to get a pic uploaded tomorrow - that is if I stop driving long enough. Forecast in MI is sunny and 82 degrees. Top down cruz'n. Yippeeee!

[Tom R.]

Re: Black phosphate

How long does it take to heat the solution with the crock pot?
Jeff

I cheat as well. I preboil the water, preheat crockpot and than add boiling water to the crock pot to sustain the boil and therefore the temperature. I also pre-heat the part to be plated. Problem I had was sustaining the temperature of the solution and getting inconsistent results.

I like the suggestion to use the caswell probe to keep the temperature of the solution at the desired temp. Better yet use Jeff's gizmo solution...I never could get the solution temperature to sustain 80 degrees.

So how important is the temperature to produce a uniformly plated product?

[Jeffrey S.]

Re: Black phosphate

Tom:
This set up is overkill for an 80 degree solution. For that I would use the Caswell ceramic heater. It is rated at only 300 watts but will bring 2 gallons to that temp in a few minutes. I use this when I need to maintain at least 120 degrees or more. What are you plating at 80 degrees?
Jeff

[Jeffrey S.]

Re: Black phosphate

Don:
And now for the male latches!
Jeff