Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

[Doug J.]

I am a little confused by the info. and "description" given in the TIM & JG in reference given to the screws that are used for the front tab on the rocker mouldings from '70-'72. The manual says that a black oxide, CROSS RECESS fillister head screw, passed through the lip and into a J-nut on the body, but by 1972 a HEX HEAD black oxide screw replaced the earlier design. By "earlier design" I'm thinking they are refering to 1970 and 1971.

In looking at the AIM for 1971, page 117 that was mostly printed in early 1970, the part # for that screw, #4, is 9419322. In comparing that part # to the part # and description and photo in the AMK PRODUCTS INC. CATALOG...amkproducts.com...which is pretty much on the money. That part # refers to a HEX HEAD SCREW, also seen as a INDENTED HEXAGON WASHER HEAD SCREW, as shown in the picture. What to do? What do you go by? What do you use? Do you go by a "Technical Information Manual & Judging Guide" that God only knows how outdated it is.."Fourth Edition", with probably 25% of the info. being wrong, and not containing probably half of what you are judged on in detail. OR...a GENERAL MOTORS ASSEMBLY MANUAL, with part numbers that basically told the workers what to use and where to use it while assembling the car, and a company that has done extensive research on what is what..with part numbers and picture's.


If I have offended anyone, I'm sorry, that was not my intention. I seem to have a BAD HABIT of speaking my mind when things don't make any sense.


Enjoy......DOUG

[Edward J.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

Doug, I remember taking about this subject a few years ago on my 72 , The front rocker lower tab bolt and retainer on 72 was just a little different than 70/71. The bolt was a blk. phos. indented hex head, and the retainer was not a j-nut it was a plastic insert. I know that the same hex head self tapper was also used under the dash area (I think for the duct work). If you have a original screw there use them,and make do with some self tappers at those points, as they cannot be seen anyway.

Look into the archives as they should be some pic.s of both style retainers & screw.

[Terry M.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

Do you go by a "Technical Information Manual & Judging Guide" that God only knows how outdated it is.."Fourth Edition", with probably 25% of the info. being wrong, and not containing probably half of what you are judged on in detail. OR...a GENERAL MOTORS ASSEMBLY MANUAL, with part numbers that basically told the workers what to use and where to use it while assembling the car, and a company that has done extensive research on what is what..with part numbers and picture's.


If I have offended anyone, I'm sorry, that was not my intention. I seem to have a BAD HABIT of speaking my mind when things don't make any sense.


Enjoy......DOUG

You have. Do you know where the road leads that is paved with good intentions?

You don't know how outdated it is, but you know that it contains probably 25% wrong information. All this over one screw? Two per car?

[Doug J.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

Edward...I read that post, you put it on the forum on Feb. 26th 2010. According to the AIM, and the part number that applies to it, it should be a flanged indented hex head screw, as seen in the picture of the screw and the part number right below it. The pages in the AIM are all dated very early 1970, mostly Feb., March, and April so you would think that it also applies to the 1970 model year. Now you read the Judging Guide and it says something totally different...that 1970 and 1971 should have a cross recess screw, and that 1972 should have a hex head screw....my point is, which one do you follow, the AIM or Guide. I know you can't see them on any given day, but when the car is being judged...trust me, it's not any given day....they see them!

[Doug J.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

You have. Do you know where the road leads that is paved with good intentions?

You don't know how outdated it is, but you know that it contains probably 25% wrong information. All this over one screw? Two per car?

Sounds like I rattled someone's cage ??? I know it's only 2 screws, but add up points all along the line and you come up with quite a few. I had said that I was SORRY, that offending anyone was not my intention...but I guess that wasn't good enough. I guess the truth hurts. And NO Terry, I don't know where the road leads to, why don't you tell me? Sounds like some sort of threat or intimidation statement too me.

Enjoy even more....Doug

[Terry M.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

Sounds like I rattled someone's cage ??? I know it's only 2 screws, but add up points all along the line and you come up with quite a few. I had said that I was SORRY, that offending anyone was not my intention...but I guess that wasn't good enough. I guess the truth hurts. And NO Terry, I don't know where the road leads to, why don't you tell me? Sounds like some sort of threat or intimidation statement too me.

Enjoy even more....Doug

No threat or intimidation Doug. Check this out. The expression is older than both of us together:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions

No, you didn't rattle my cage. You only added to my continual amazement of the human condition that allows people to jump from two screws to such sweeping generalities.

[Mike E.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

Maybe just restoring your car to the AMK catalog would make more sense if it is so much more reliable than the NCRS JG.

I am a little confused by the info. and "description" given in the TIM & JG in reference given to the screws that are used for the front tab on the rocker mouldings from '70-'72. The manual says that a black oxide, CROSS RECESS fillister head screw, passed through the lip and into a J-nut on the body, but by 1972 a HEX HEAD black oxide screw replaced the earlier design. By "earlier design" I'm thinking they are refering to 1970 and 1971.

In looking at the AIM for 1971, page 117 that was mostly printed in early 1970, the part # for that screw, #4, is 9419322. In comparing that part # to the part # and description and photo in the AMK PRODUCTS INC. CATALOG...amkproducts.com...which is pretty much on the money. That part # refers to a HEX HEAD SCREW, also seen as a INDENTED HEXAGON WASHER HEAD SCREW, as shown in the picture. What to do? What do you go by? What do you use? Do you go by a "Technical Information Manual & Judging Guide" that God only knows how outdated it is.."Fourth Edition", with probably 25% of the info. being wrong, and not containing probably half of what you are judged on in detail. OR...a GENERAL MOTORS ASSEMBLY MANUAL, with part numbers that basically told the workers what to use and where to use it while assembling the car, and a company that has done extensive research on what is what..with part numbers and picture's.


If I have offended anyone, I'm sorry, that was not my intention. I seem to have a BAD HABIT of speaking my mind when things don't make any sense.


Enjoy......DOUG

[Doug J.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

No threat or intimidation Doug. Check this out. The expression is older than both of us together:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions

No, you didn't rattle my cage. You only added to my continual amazement of the human condition that allows people to jump from two screws to such sweeping generalities.

Terry,
I am not making a sweeping generality, this situation I am referencing is one of many I have come across while dealing with the AIM and what is stated in the Judging Guide. I made the comments about the Judging Guide being "outdated" and 25% of the info probably being wrong, because there have been occasions when I have followed the Judging Guide to the letter and had points deducted while being judged. I have challenged the judges in regard to these deductions knowing for a fact I was correct, sometimes they remove the deductions and sometimes they don't. People like myself spend A LOT of time and MONEY in getting our cars correct and ready for judging then have been given deductions in areas where we shouldn't have received them. This was originally intended as just a question to clear up a the discrepancy between the AIM and the Judging Guide. If you didn't personally write the Judging Guide, then why would you take such offense to what I said? If I'm not mistaken, but I could be, I thought I read in a post somewhere, mentioned by you, that the Fourth Edition came out anywhere from 6 to 8 years ago. Could you please let inquiring minds know when the Fourth Edition Judging Guide came out? Since you took such offense about the comment about the Judging Guide and every post of mine in this thread, do you have an answer or anything positive to add to my original question...what screw do I use?

I never intended for this to end up in a debate as to how accurate the Judging Guide is, the comment was made simply out of frustration from past experiences when following the Judging Guide. In your opinion, what would be your best advice to follow in this case, the AIM or the Judging Guide?

Thank you very much,
Doug

[Kurt G.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

Lets throw another rug under this bus. My early (Sept '71) '72 has the hex screw and the j-nut, not the plastic insert. However, the hole thru which the screw passes in the body is a small square. A sign of things to come?

[Edward J.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

Kurt Interesting as my 72 has square holes and plastic inserts like a mini plastic lic. plate screw retainer.

[Paul O.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

Just some information that for a very long time we know from many original 70-71 cars that the screw used was a a fillister head cross recessed or Philips type screw through almost all of production. We do not know the exact date that this screw became a recessed head hex head screw with a built in washer. But it could be assumed that late 1971 and early 1972 could have ether type or both on a car. Do both work yes just like when was the J-nut not used and the plastic insert nut start being used.

In regard to the technical information manual & judging guide it is as I have stated many times before it is a living and growing document. Are there errors and omissions yes but in no way is it in its present form have 25% errors with in it. The Guide and you see the word guide is assembled by volunteers within the NCRS that have vast knowledge and information and is done as a committee. So it is not by just one individual but by many who help add to it and create it.

I see you have both a 1971 and 1972 both Top Flights and congratulation on that accomplishment if those cars were build close to end or beginning of a production year there could be anomalies that may or may not be it this addition of the judging guide. The next update is still years away but you can believe that we have started making addition and changes to that update. We monitor the board and when there is a discussion on an item that we have not looked at or needs an update we do that. We do learn things from the discussion board. You can help this by adding information that you have gathered and sending it the National Team Leader this then could be reviewed as part of the update. It is always good to have an other set of eyes to see item we may have over looked. Remember we are member trying to help fellow members with their cars we are no perfect and do make errors.

[Doug J.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

Gentleman....In regard to Mike's statement. I was not comparing the AMK Catalog to anything, all I was doing was showing a part number under a picture of the screw in question. I was comparing things in the AIM, to things in the Judging Guide and asking a question in regard to them. I also voiced my opinion on a few things, it might have been a little too loud, but as I stated in the very begining, I HAD NO INTENTION TO OFFEND ANYONE, OBVIOUSALLY I DID AND I APPOLOGIZE FOR THAT. The 25% comment was made out of frustration and frustration only, I'm sure we all have been in that position at one time or another, I should have thought before I spoke.

Paul...First I would like to thank you for the compliment on my 1971 and my 1972..THANK YOU. As I stated above, my 25% comment was out of line. The Guide is just that, a guide. It IS very informative and helpful, I know all information is assembled by volunteers, and I commend and appreciate and DO respect their knowledge and time involved. Since the 1970-72 Judging Guide came out, I totally understand that things have changed, new things have been discovered, and new information has been found, it truly is a living and growing document. I know that if everything in regard to the car was published, the Guide would probably be about 3 inches thick, that it why it is up to the owner to investigate and ask questions, and seek the help and knowledge and experiences from fellow members. We are all members of the NCRS because we all share in the same hobby, and the Love, Appreciation and Excitement of the Corvette.


I WOULD LIKE TO EXTEND A PERSONAL APPOLOGY TO TERRY AND MIKE......AND TO ANYONE ELSE THAT MIGHT HAVE TAKEN OFFENSE TO MY STATEMENTS...I DO TRULY APPOLOGIZE.


Thank you all for your time and effort in making the NCRS what it is today......Doug

[Terry M.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

Apology accepted.

May I suggest another approach to this "issue." Ask others on this board what their known original 1970-72s has for the fastener on the tab. We can stand to revisit what we think we know from time to time, especially as new technology comes on-line to help us.

This board is a wonderful resource for gathering data quickly and easily -- without the trouble of traveling to multiple meets as we used to have to do. Using that resource will go a long way to making future TIM&JG more accurate and thicker.

[Roy S.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

Gentleman....
I WOULD LIKE TO EXTEND A PERSONAL APPOLOGY TO TERRY AND MIKE......AND TO ANYONE ELSE THAT MIGHT HAVE TAKEN OFFENSE TO MY STATEMENTS...I DO TRULY APPOLOGIZE.

Thank you all for your time and effort in making the NCRS what it is today......Doug

[Reba W.]

Re: Rocker moulding screws and screw for front tab ??? Somethings wrong

If you look inside the front cover, there is a copyright date on the JG just like any other publication.