427 Starter Problem
Hello, I had a customers original 1967 Corvette 427/435HP car towed into my shop with starter issues. One of the mount bolts was loose causing the housing to crack. The starter is an original Delco 1107365 with an aluminum mount housing. This housing has two mount bolt holes that are directly across from each other. The 2 mount bolts are different lengths. The customer has supplied me with 2 rebuilt Delco 1107365 starters, however both have 3 hole cast iron mount housings. He also went to the local parts stores and was given the same style starter, stating this is the only starter and housing combination available for this engine. This starter will not physically fit on the block due to interference with the oil pan bolts. I dismantled the original starter and installed the cracked housing with armature and drive. All components are in perfect alignment. I attempted to install one of the cast iron housings and again could not mate it to the block. Has anyone come across this problem before? Thank you so much in advance for any and all help, John
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
John,
The 1107365 starter is supposed to have the cast iron nose cone housing as original equipment. The aluminum housing was generally used on small block 283 & 327 engines, with a couple of exceptions. The flywheel and bell housing determine which starter housing to use, and what you have may not be correct for the engine. The correct flywheel would be approx 14 & 1/8" diameter with 168 teeth. The clutch housing should be 3899621. If you have a 3840383 clutch housing that requires a smaller diameter 13" flywheel and that combination uses the aluminum starter housing.
To solve your problem, purchase a aluminum starter housing and install it on your original starter or one of the rebuilt and then install on the engine. The aluminum housing uses 1 long bolt and 1 short bolt to mount it. Be advised, this arrangement could break again.
Ray, -
Re: 427 Starter Problem
John-------
No GM #1107365 starter EVER was ORIGINALLY manufactured with an aluminum starter nose housing. None. Ever. Of course, after a starter has been through a commercial rebuilding operation, the part number on the starter frame means absolutely nothing. Starters are often reconfigured in the rebuilding process. In this case, someone may actually have made up this starter to preserve "original numbers" while accommodating a decidedly non original flywheel, clutch and bellhousing.
So, as Ray mentioned, all this can be sorted out by knowing what the casting number is of the bellhousing currently installed on the car. As he said, it should be a GM #3899621 and this number should be prominently displayed on the bellhousing. That would indicate a 14" flywheel which is correct for the application. If it's a GM #3840383 or GM #3858403, that would also indicate a 12-3/4" flywheel which is incorrect for the application.
There's another possibility, too. That would be a 12-3/4" flywheel used within a GM #3899621 bellhousing. That can be done. However, in that case I don't know what starter to use since that combination was never used in PRODUCTION.
So, as a first step, what GM number is on the bellhousing?In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
Hello Ray and Joe, Thank you for your responses. The part number on the bellhousing is #3858403. The local Chevrolet dealer we get parts from called someone at vintage GM and they gave him a part number #1968122 for the starter mount housing. This is an aluminum casting and same bolt configuration. They state this starter housing is used on SHP and L88 applications. The customer stated he had a clutch replaced in 1992 and had the starter replaced sometime in the 80's. The car is an original 427/435 car as noted by the tank sticker and protection plate. Does any of this make sense? Thank you so much for your time and trouble, JohnComment
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
Since you have the wrong bell housing, flywheel, pressure plate and clutch and broken mismatched starter you might as well get an aftermarket gear motor starter since everything else is wrong and be able to reliable start the car.
Unless you remove and replace parts to make the car correct as Joe gave you the p/n’s necessary to be able to install the correct cast housing 1107365 starter. Or you can do as I suggest.Comment
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
Hello, I just came across the same starter that I removed from this car. It is EBAY item # 141758261823 and is listed by Corvette Specialties of Oregon. It is listed for a late 1966 L71 and L88. I also researched the bellhousing number and found it is used on late 1966 427 SHP engines. This car was built early December 1966. High price for a starter however will have customer make the decision. Thank you, JohnComment
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
John,
It is a fact that Chevrolet produced the L-88 427 engines with the light weight smaller diameter flywheel and the 3858403 clutch housing, which would then utilize the 1968122 starter housing. My guess is, that for whatever reason, when the clutch was replaced, the flywheel and clutch housing were also were replaced. Then they figured out that the starter would not bolt up correctly and so then they changed the starter housing from the original cast iron to the aluminum one you found. This should all work as intended. Be sure the starter motor brace is attached at the front end of the starter to the block. This Corvette would have had an 11" clutch, but if you were to go in to that system now, you would find a 10 & 1/2 " ( 10.4) as a result of the flywheel change.
RayComment
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
Hello Ray, Again thank you for your time and help. The Chevrolet dealer located a #1968122 housing for us through a friend. The front starter support was installed and secure. Flywheel and starter drive are in very good condition. Going to install this housing on one of the Delco starters he supplied and hopefully send him down the road. Thank you, JohnComment
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
John-------
I don't see why the owner would be concerned about having an original part numbered starter when the overall configuration of the starter (easily discerned by a judge) is incorrect and with a bellhousing that's incorrect for the application. No ones going to be fooled.
One more note of caution, though. Starters with the aluminum nose and starters with the cast iron nose used different armatures. I don't recall what the difference is. However, I recall that once I tried to change the nose on an original aluminum nose starter to a cast iron nose starter or vice-versa. I found there was something about the armature that prevented me from doing this, or, at least, prevented me from getting an assembly that was satisfactory to me. I realize that you are simply replacing an aluminum nose with an aluminum nose. However, if when the aluminum nose was added to the 1107365 starter the armature was not changed, that may explain why the housing eventually cracked.
If you have any problem with this whole project, an alternative would be acquiring a GM #10496870, aka Delco #323-364 remanufactured starter. This is a high quality rebuild and is not all that expensive. It won't have the right numbers on it but it will install and work perfectly.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
Hello Ray, Interesting story. This is a two owner car purchased by the father and given to the son. The father ordered the car in August 1966 from a dealer in North Carolina when he was getting out of the army. He was promised a delivery date in October 1966. Due to a strike at GM the delivery was postponed and he had to return in December to pick up the car. He, the son and a mechanic friend were the only ones to remove these components to replace the clutch assembly. They had the flywheel resurfaced at this time. The father recalled what a pain in the a__ it was to replace. He insists that all components except for the starter were on the car as delivered. Is it possible that due to the strike old stock components were used. There is no plan to ever have the car judged, even though I have encouraged him to do so. We received and installed the housing today and all is working good. I will continue to monitor the situation in the future. Thank you, JohnComment
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
John,
Thanks for the update. Indeed an interesting story. In my mind, it is entirely possible that the factory assembly guys could have assembled the car with the small block components- flywheel, clutch housing, & starter housing, particularly during a strike episode. Working in a Chev dealership in the parts department for those years we used to encounter similar situations whereby we had to " match " what was there, rather than adhere to the parts catalog.
Ray
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
It sounds like the father nor the son did the actual work on the car THEMSELVES. And were unaware of the differences between SB and BB bell housings nor starters. So the posting #7 plausibility described seems to fit this story rather than GM building a car so deviated from normal production build. None of the parts to complete big block clutch, pressure plate and bell housing assembly with correct starter are rare nor scarce parts. Really.Comment
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
John-------
The bellhousing, flywheel and clutch were installed at the engine plants. I really doubt that they would have installed a '403' bellhousing, 12-3/4" flywheel and 10.4" clutch on an engine suffix-coded as an L-71. I could see a slight possibility of it happening for an early 1966 L-72 but not for a 1967 L-71, strike or no strike. Plus, and even more telling, is that the car has a GM #1107365 starter which has been reconfigured with an aluminum nose. We know this happened because while the 1107365 is the correct, original starter for a 1967 L-71, none had an aluminum nose. The starter was installed at St. Louis, not the engine plants. Even if St. Louis had received an L-71 with the wrong clutch and bellhousing, I really can't see St. Louis taking an 1107365 starter and changing the nose. For one thing, they wouldn't even have had such a nose as a separate part in the plant. For another thing, all they would have had to do was use a starter that was built with an aluminum nose which they would have had in the plant.
Do you know the date of the starter you took out of the car? Did it have a date code that was consistent with the car's build date?
I think that someone that's owned this car has forgotten something.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: 427 Starter Problem
Hello Joe, The starter numbers are # 1107365 date # 6 J 2 ( this was the original starter from the car that they had rebuilt at the time). The reason they towed the car to me was the fact that I own (2) 1966 L72's and a 1967 L71. All three cars have the cast iron housing with the offset bolts. The only other vehicle I have worked on with the aluminum housing was an original 1969 Z28 with the 302. After the father described the problems with lifting and moving the engine, I knew he was involved in the clutch replacement. As well cared for as this car is, I have no reason to question him. He even keeps excellent service records since purchased. The only warranty repairs made were a fuel bowl replacement on the rear carburetor and a voltage regulator replacement. Again, thank you all for time and research. JohnComment
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In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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